Eat My Words

Johanna Almstea...: Hi everyone. I'm menu planning for my next guests. Plural. I'm going to have two. I'm feeling a little sort of Middle Eastern inspired. I think I'm going to start with a mushroom and telegio flatbread with a little rosemary and just a little side of some really delicious hummus and baba ganoush and some veggies. And with that, I actually am going to serve a chilled red. Maybe a good Italian Barbera d'Alba maybe. And then I might just stick with the red if everyone's okay with that. And I think I'm going to do a Moroccan tagine. I'm going to do couscous with lemon and olives with a grilled lamb on top. I'm feeling just like cozy and sort of inspired by the Middle East right now so I think we're going to go there. I feel like this is going to be a lively group and so I am going to ... Who am I going to play? I'm going to play some Kygo. I'm going to play some Stevie Nicks. I'm going to play some ... I might even go for some old school Abba, like a little Donna Summer. I don't know. I just feel like this is going to be a fun group. So I'm really excited for you to meet my next two guests. They are bold, they are brilliant, they are bad asses, and I know you're going to be super inspired by their story. So let's dig in.
Hello everyone and welcome to Eat My Words. I'm riled up already today. It's already been a really fun pre-call. So I am super excited because we are trying something a little different today. I have two guests. I've had three before. I've never had two. So this is super fun. My guests today are what I think is a very powerful illustration of what can happen when two smart and very determined women get together with a mission. They are deeply committed to that mission and have pivoted and weaved their way to success. They work and lead with purpose and enthusiasm. They are the powerhouse co-founders and co-CEOs of Unicorn, which is a company that is redefining modern workplaces by making period care ... That's what we're talking about today. Period care as ubiquitous as toilet paper in every bathroom stall everywhere. Guys, no one is talking about this.
We have to talk about this. So with their unmatched passion and vision, they are not just building a company, they are actually creating a movement. One started out driving a Frito-Lay truck, which I really need to hear more about, and ended up leading distribution at PepsiCo, Coca-Cola and Nestle. The other has worked as an executive for incredible brands like Talbot's, Kate Spade, Coach, and Anne Taylor, where she has gleaned deep consumer insights, brand strategy and marketing chops. Together they are reshaping workplace wellness and equity from inside out, partnering with global institutions like JP Morgan Chase, American Express, Blackstone, Toyota, and PepsiCo, which I bet none of them thought they were going to be talking about period care. Their joint leadership is bold, it is unapologetic, and it is generational. They are mothers, they are advocates, they are friends, and they are smart as hell. Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan, welcome to Eat My Words.
Denielle Finkel...: Woo-hoo. So honored to be here. So honored.
Thyme Sullivan: Super happy to be here.
Johanna Almstea...: So honored to have you both.
Denielle Finkel...: I'm so excited for what you're building so this is amazing.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm excited to talk about what you guys are building. First of all, I know things are insane. You guys are in a really crazy time of growth and fundraising and all sorts of things. So thank you for taking time out of your insane lives to be here because I think it's important that we share your story. So I really appreciate you taking the time.
Denielle Finkel...: Thank you. Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: Today I want to talk to you about so many things and I feel like we probably could talk for 47 hours if I allowed it. But the main thing I want to talk to you about today is your partnership and the idea of pivoting once you've started a business. I always like to give people context for how we know each other. Denielle, you and I met at Kate Spade and I always felt like even though you and I didn't always work very closely together, you brought sort of this humanity and compassion and positivity to me certainly and to your work there. You were calm in a lot of chaos and you were always very, very kind to me. I feel like we met when I was in a sort of crazy time of having a baby and doing all the things and trying to juggle work, and you always were a very compassionate ear and a very supportive friend, so I appreciate that very much. And it turned out that you actually had previously worked with one of my closest friends, Amy.
Denielle Finkel...: Just so crazy.
Johanna Almstea...: Who I'm trying to get to come on the podcast. Ames, are you listening?
Denielle Finkel...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Right? Doesn't she need to come on?
Denielle Finkel...: She does.
Johanna Almstea...: And then I got to meet you, Thyme, when you two had started your business and you were meeting with people in New York and I got to hear more about your mission. I was deeply struck during that meeting by both of your joint passion and your drive and your enthusiasm for this mission. Because I think like so many people, you can be driven by a lot of things, but being driven by purpose and mission to me feels like in many ways the most sustainable. So several years later, here we are. So thank you for coming. I would first love for you guys to give a little background of what your company is now and actually how it started out. Because in a short amount of time you had founded a company, pivoted a company and turned it into something else all under the same mission. So can you guys give me a little background about that?
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. At the core of what our mission is, Jo, you already sort of said it, is we're changing women's lives by placing period products in bathroom stalls. It's so simple. This isn't AI. This isn't wifi. This isn't tech. This isn't any of those things. At the core of this is that when Thyme and I started this, we wanted to create something for our daughters and we wanted to create and change what society had built for us as it was, and we wanted something better for our girls. So it was about a better product. So that's how it started. And then the evolution-
Johanna Almstea...: And when you say a better product ... Sorry, I just want to stop you there.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: When you say a better product, at that time it was like organic, non-toxic period care.
Denielle Finkel...: We started as a retail business selling boxed product on shelves in just under 3000 retailers. And super proud of the fact that we'd gotten ourselves there. But what we recognized super early on, and this was about two and a half to three years in, was that we weren't going to have the impact of what that original mission was by selling a premium product on shelf. We weren't going to change the lives of our daughters, we weren't going to change the lives of your daughters, this next generation wasn't going to experience that unless we did something that was bold that was also where it's a necessity. We talk about toilet paper all the time because no guy, but also we as women aren't thinking about toilet paper. It's always there where you need it in a public space.
Johanna Almstea...: It's really frustrating when it's not there, right?
Denielle Finkel...: Exactly. Well if you think about guys-
Johanna Almstea...: Someone's not doing their job.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. And if you think about for guys, they would never let that happen and they'd never go to the common area to get it. So three and a half years ago, just through a strategy meeting, Thyme and I with our team, sat back and went through the mission and really talked about what is it that we're standing for? And I will actually give a shout-out to our amazing friend Sydney because she was one of the ones where it really talked about the importance of having purpose embedded within the business. And we talked to her early on and we weren't having that purpose the way that we wanted to have the impact. And so it had us sit back and say, "Oh, okay. You know what? There's something that's a barrier that is out there. All of us who go out to these bathrooms, we see these things in the common area, they're crappy as hell, they're broken, they're metal, nobody cares a quarter, the quality of the products from 1980." All of those things.
But also we had customers asking us because they loved our product and would say, "Hey, do you have a dispenser or can we put your product in these dispensers?" And we sat back and said, "You know what? We've got to figure this out on our own." Because one, that is a barrier. And then the second was when we really finally sat back and were like, "This actually needs to be when you're sitting on the toilet. It's simple. It's just like toilet paper." And that was where the shift happened. And so three and a half years ago, probably the boldest decision we've made in our business is that we completely pulled out of retail. We were in retailers like your Wegmans, your H.E.B.'s down in the south, Sprouts, Fresh Thyme. Out in the West coast, we're in Erewhon. Like you get your $30 smoothie with our tampons. But that wasn't where the impact was going to happen. And what we made the decision and strategically made this decision is like, we're going to do this because that's actually going to be where the change is going to happen. If we put period products where every woman needs them, then that will remove that barrier.
Johanna Almstea...: Can I ask why you had to pull out of retail and not just do this in addition to retail? Because that feels confusing to me.
Denielle Finkel...: The biggest reason is energy, focus and time.
Johanna Almstea...: Got it. Okay.
Denielle Finkel...: And so when you really like what we knew ... And Thyme and I both have adult ADHD. I've always had ADHD, but the worst ADHD. So you throw squirrels in there for us, we're going to go after that. And so this allowed all of our resources as well. Everything that we were putting in was going to go after this. There were other folks on the retail side and the big guys are chomping at the bit and trying to really push off these small guys from the retail shelves. So you've got your Proctor and Gamble, Kimberly Clark, all of them. Right now, there's nobody in this space. And so this really allowed us to go in.
Johanna Almstea...: So you saw white space. Yeah.
Denielle Finkel...: White space, but energy, time and resources, those were the biggest pieces.
Johanna Almstea...: Got it. Okay. And did you know you needed to pivot before? You were solving an issue and the purpose part came, but did you go into that meeting saying, "We need to pivot," or you were just like, "We're just iterating. We're just ideating. We're just kind of like-"
Thyme Sullivan: I think we realized that we weren't doing anything very differently than anybody else. There were other startup organic brands on the shelf, and they were a couple years ahead of us and we started to see them getting picked off the shelves. And no matter how much money you spend at retail to defend your space, eventually the big guys are going to win because that's what I used to do in my old life with Coke and Pepsi and Nestle when any newcomer tried to come into your retail space. So we kind of ahead of it, saw the writing on the wall, which was a really difficult conversation with existing investors because they invested in us specifically because of our retail knowledge. But changing from a, we had a director consumer model, we were at retail to completely pivot into B2B was just a massive shift, but it's the greatest thing that we ever did because again, it was blue ocean and we really, at the same time, were able to completely rebrand, change the name of our brand.
And Unicorn has actually changed everything because before we were called TOP, which was an acronym for The Organic Project, and it was a mouthful and it wasn't sticky enough. But Unicorn is really sticky and it's a really easy conversation starter and it's memorable. Everywhere we go, we go to trade shows, if there's a big Unicorn booth and there's a lot of Unicorn energy, everybody wants to come over and chat with us. But if we were The Organic Project, it was not exciting. And there really has never been a mascot strangely enough in feminine care. So it was bringing the fun back into it, it was bringing the branding, it was taking a completely new shift. And again, there's no looking back because now we're seeing the opportunity to make real generational change, whereas another product on shelf wasn't really going to change anybody's lives.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I have two questions. One, those investors that were skeptical about this or upset with you because you were changing and pivoting, what are they thinking now? Are they happy now or are they still like-
Denielle Finkel...: Happier. They're happier.
Johanna Almstea...: "Mm. Still waiting. Still waiting."
Denielle Finkel...: No. We would definitely say they're much happier now. I think-
Johanna Almstea...: They're getting it. They're seeing it.
Denielle Finkel...: They're getting it. They're understanding now. Look, when you go from successful business and top line was successful, really when it came down to it though, it was like at the end of the day, we still need to make margin dollars. We weren't making the margin dollars. And so now we're making that shift and so that's where the success is starting to happen. It's like still the top line is happening, but now we're also really starting to benefit from the margin dollars. So they're starting to understand it more and more.
Johanna Almstea...: They're like, "Oh, now you're speaking my language."
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. But one of the things that we can definitely say just around the investor side is that we made a very conscious decision early on to only take on angel investors. We have a couple of institutional, but we never went venture. And-
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Wait. Let's pause there for the audience because I want to explain the difference.
Denielle Finkel...: Absolutely.
Johanna Almstea...: So for those who are not aware, angel investors are private individuals who are-
Denielle Finkel...: Individuals. They have high net worth. And we're not talking million dollar checks. We're talking 20,000 to $100,000 checks. So it's much smaller. And what angel then allowed is the control. Venture, if you take on venture money, they essentially take on full control of your company.
Johanna Almstea...: So venture capital money for those people who don't know is like it's a big firm. They're much bigger checks. They take a much bigger portion of your company. And like you just said, they have much more control over the decisions that you can make.
Denielle Finkel...: So if we had gone venture, we never would've been able to make this pivot.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah. Unicorn never would've happened.
Johanna Almstea...: And I think that's so important. I think that's such an important point to make because a lot of our listeners actually are startups and the conversation around fundraising is a big one always, and what kind of money to take. So this is the conversation around what people say is like private money or institutional money. If you've heard those terms, that's what that means. And so what made you decide to only take ... Was it just the control? What made you decide to only take angel money?
Thyme Sullivan: We will actually say we actually couldn't raise venture.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, no, but we ... That is true. That is true in the beginning. We had the worst experience. We call it the summer of unloved. We went around New York City, met with a hundred different venture capital. It was so horrible. It was the most-
Johanna Almstea...: It's awful.
Thyme Sullivan: So humbling.
Denielle Finkel...: Horrible, humbling. It really kicked us in the butt. But we then went to a conference and Cindy Eckert, who is the founder and CEO of ... What's the company, Thyme?
Thyme Sullivan: The Pink Ceiling.
Denielle Finkel...: The Pink ... But what's ... Addyi. It's the first female Viagra drug. And so she sold it for a billion dollars. Huge, huge, huge success. But she sat on a panel and she actually, during this, talked about fundraising. And one of the things she shared was go after angel. Don't get caught up by all that's happening in the VC world. She actually called out certain people and one of the people that she called out was who is one of our key investors now, this woman, Barbara Clark, who truly was one of our true angels. But that was one of the things we listened. I think that's other thing too is especially that's probably the best skill that Thyme and I have gained over these last seven years is we are constantly listening and learning. But that was one of those moments where, okay, you have somebody who's extremely successful. Let's take that in. Let's understand why she's giving us that advice and giving a room of people that advice. And that was the best decision we did. We went after angel. We went after close friends and family. A little bit of institutional, but it's really like the chunk of our funding came from angel investors.
Thyme Sullivan: But it's also angels that were aligned with our purpose and mission and really understood. It's a lot of women, which is not a big surprise. And we get asked for advice all the time because we've been at it for seven years now and we've kind of come up with our own theory too. I mean, we have a very strict no assholes on our cap table rule, which has really worked out well for us because you want to surround yourself with good people and strategic partners and we stand by it.
Johanna Almstea...: I've heard the term money can be really expensive in many ways. You might take on someone's money, but then you pay for it because their personality is terrible or their work ethic or whatever it is ends up being not aligned with your purpose. And so I do think for those listening, that's a really important point to make, that not all money is good money. Not all money is the right money. And if you stick to your guns and you stick to your mission, the right money will come.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Okay. I love that. I think that's really important.
Thyme Sullivan: Well, and at this point in our business, any money we take on typically comes with somebody who can advise us, somebody who has a network. It's really smart money, I guess is what they call it, and not just ... At this point, it's not checks. We really need to build out our-
Johanna Almstea...: It's strategic partnerships.
Denielle Finkel...: Strategic relationships. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. I think fundraising is really hard, particularly for women. I would love to talk through what you guys ... Because I guess you guys are still in the process too. It's constant fundraising in this kind of-
Thyme Sullivan: It never ends.
Johanna Almstea...: It never ends, right? So what are the top five things or three things that you've learned from that you would advise founders, particularly female founders? What would you say would be your ... I don't know if they're fundraising hacks because there's no recipe, right? I feel like people want a set of instructions of this is how you fundraise, and I feel like it just never is. It's always just some crazy mishmash of angel and something else and loans and grants and all this other stuff. So if you guys can distill three things or five things that you would pass down to female founders now, what have you learned? Good lessons, bad lessons, hard lessons, whatever it is.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, I think the key advice, and Thyme just said it, the number one thing is make sure that you are folks that are aligned with your mission.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Denielle Finkel...: So it can be men or women. It doesn't matter. But you need to ensure that they're aligned with your mission, that they believe in what you're doing. That's the most important thing because as long as they are staying true to what your mission is and the same, it just makes the conversations with them much easier. So that's the number one thing.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Because you're not trying to justify your beliefs. You're not trying to justify your mission during every conversation. If they're on board, they're on board.
Denielle Finkel...: Correct. And they can also make introductions to other folks that are within their network so that there's some alignment as well there. So that was really one of the most important things. The second is finding a really strong group of advisors. So it is folks that are from all different types of walks of life within the business and some who have taken something to an acquisition, some who are stronger in marketing, some who are stronger in operations. Find the compliments to us but they can also ... We can pick up the phone and just say, "Hey, listen, I need to ask you a question about this." You want to be able to have that throughout the fundraising cycle as well to get their advice because they've already been through it. So that was really, really important to us.
Johanna Almstea...: And when you say that, are those formal relationships or is it just sort of like your network and you're like, "Hey, I would really love for you to be an unofficial advisor for me," or are they advisors that get equity and is it a formal contract or is it-
Denielle Finkel...: It's not formal in the sense of they're getting equity. It is folks that have some invested in the business and so that's part of the reason. But it's also, if you look at our cap table, not every person there as an advisor. We're very select on who we've chosen as those advisors because they're going to compliment what we need, but they're also going to give you the hard truth. The most important thing is somebody who's going to cheer for you, but also during tough times is going to give you the hard truth and help you out of those dark times.
Thyme Sullivan: Yes. And I can add a few more things. From the earliest days, what Cindy Eckert said is to not take on venture for as long as possible. So we did start out with angel investors and one of our investors who is an advisor, Barbara Clark, was really incredible to us in the beginning because we have to remember that investors are investing in the founders as much as the mission and the product or whatever that your company does. But she stopped us mid-presentation and said, "Hey, you two are total badass and it is not coming across in your pitch deck, so I'm going to stop you right there, and I'm going to spend some time with you and I'm going to coach you on your pitch, and then I'm going to open up my network to you." And that's exactly what happened. And it was just so-
Johanna Almstea...: Holy shit. How did that feel in that moment?
Thyme Sullivan: It felt well, terrible in the moment because we thought we were doing a really good job and we weren't. But again, we came from these really big jobs in corporate America, and we were the breadwinners in our family. We thought for sure it was going to be so easy for us to raise money and scale this business. And that was a really tough conversation, but she was right. And what she did is she gave us the opportunity to pitch in a way that understands what investors are thinking and what they're looking for. And it really did change so much for us and we're really incredibly grateful for that. So I would add that to the list.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. One other thing too, which I think is really important, and this is definitely I would say Thyme and I, we've learned along the way, is be very open to feedback. Listen, it's like what we were just saying before. You'll go to our younger selves and you take feedback and you take offense to it. It's not anymore. It's all learning for us. And so that has really shifted by now, especially when it comes to the fundraising side, you don't need to know everything. And I think that's another thing too. Coming from the old worlds that we came from, you felt like you needed to have everything ticked and tied and your presentations had to be perfect. And there isn't. And that's the other part, is give yourself the grace on that. You've got an amazing mission, you're doing great things. You've got proof points, all of that. So just also utilize the time with the investors to learn from them and ask questions. I think that's the part too early on. I mean, I can definitely say it for myself. I wanted to go in there and feel like we knew it all and we didn't. And so really that shift has helped us over the last couple of years.
Johanna Almstea...: I think that's such a huge point because as someone who started my career in corporate America and then mostly work now in startup stuff, and it's such a different mentality. When you are coming in and you have to present as a big executive in a big corporation, you do have to know everything or you have to pretend like you do. Right?
Denielle Finkel...: Oh yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: And I think it's such a different ... Especially with investors. They call bullshit in five seconds. They're the first to be like, "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about." And you shouldn't know what the fuck you're talking about in some cases and it's okay for you not to know, but it's more important for you to admit that you don't know it. And I think that is major. I think that's a really, really, really important point. So founders, if you're listening.
Thyme Sullivan: There was actually a really funny thing that another investor told us too, is she had a friend whose son was a professional poker player, and she asked him, "How come there's not more women that play poker?" He goes, "Oh, that's easy." He said, "Because women play the cards that they have and men play the cards that they want." And we were so upset with that. But I was-
Johanna Almstea...: Feels like a kick in the gut.
Thyme Sullivan: You're like, oh. But if you think about it, I mean there's this incredible woman, Jenny Just who started this ... She's a financial genius.
Denielle Finkel...: Poker Power.
Thyme Sullivan: Poker Power. Encourages women to play poker so that they get better at taking risk and calling BS and bluffing and all those things.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God. Do I need to take up poker?
Thyme Sullivan: We keep a deck of cards on our desk to remind us every day that we have to play the cards that we want.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay, wait. I'm writing this down. Jenny Just.
Thyme Sullivan: Write it down. Jenny Just.
Denielle Finkel...: You need to get your girls to play poker. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Power Poker.
Denielle Finkel...: Get her whole crew.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. This is so good.
Thyme Sullivan: No. And that's one of the reasons why it's harder for women to raise money. It's like we've got to ask for what we want and we have to be shameless. And you're right. We're not going to know everything going into it. I would also add that we've watched people in the space raise too much money.
Johanna Almstea...: Tell our listeners what that means because you would think that would not be a problem.
Thyme Sullivan: It's a terrible problem. And we thought the same thing. Almost like people look at it like a victory lap. When you raise millions of dollars that you've achieved something great. You haven't. You've diluted yourself. So you want to raise the least amount of money to scale your business possible. And what we've also learned along the journey is the people that raise too much money, they lose their company because they just dilute you way too much. We've looked at a lot of alternate financing and we've done really well. We've gotten several grants, which grant writing is not difficult. It's just time-consuming. We've probably gotten five or six.
Denielle Finkel...: I'm the queen of grants. Queen.
Thyme Sullivan: I love it. It's my weird-
Johanna Almstea...: Such a skill.
Thyme Sullivan: Nighttime hobby. Nighttime weekend hobby.
Johanna Almstea...: She's like, "You know what I feel like doing? I feel like applying for-"
Denielle Finkel...: Oh no, she does. All of a sudden she'll be like, "I'm applying for this sometimes."
Thyme Sullivan: Oh my God, this terrible one I had to apply 12 times. I was like, we refuse to be ignored. We're going to be friends.
Denielle Finkel...: We got it.
Thyme Sullivan: He just doesn't know it yet. Yeah. But grants. We have a line of credit with an investor that's helped with inventory needs. We've done a revenue-based financing with an incredible company called Rev Up Capital out of Rhode Island, who we love. They're wonderful-
Johanna Almstea...: Wait. Can you explain that one? Revenue-based financing. I feel like that's probably one that people don't know. What does that mean?
Thyme Sullivan: It's non-dilutive financing. It's very expensive money, but what it does is you have to pay back a portion of your revenue until you pay back their investment.
Johanna Almstea...: So it's a loan. It's more like a loan.
Thyme Sullivan: It's essentially like a loan. Yeah.
Denielle Finkel...: It's essentially like a loan.
Thyme Sullivan: But their team has become incredible advisors and truth tellers to us. Melissa Weathers, if you're out there, we love you. It's a really unique model. And again, it's non-dilutive. So the message I think that we know now is that you have to maintain control of your company if you really want to make change in the world because having too much money from somebody is going to change your course because they're not going to be patient, they're going to make financial decisions that might not be good for the long-term, but might be good for their short-term interest.
Johanna Almstea...: So for the people listening who are not familiar with this territory, what happens is many investors, especially if they are institutional money or what we were saying, VCs or big, big checks, for the most part, they want to be in a business and then they want to be out of a business within ... Most of the time it's like seven years or less. I don't know about you guys. So that means that they want to give you a lot of money, they want you to scale your business at whatever cost it is to your mission or whatever else. They want you to grow your business so big that you can then ... It's called an event or a transaction. They want you to do something with it. So they want you to either go public or they want you to sell it. So say it's a consumer product like yours, they would want you to then sell it to a Proctor and Gamble for a big giant amount of money so they get their money back out plus lots of money.
And they've had control of your business for a big part of that. So that's sort of like 101. And so what these guys are saying is basically, don't do that unless that's your goal. I actually have clients who that is their goal. They've started a consumer product. They want to be in and out in seven years. They want to sell it. That's the whole purpose of them starting the business, which is a very, very, very different kind of business than you start when you're trying to build a long-standing brand. And so when Thyme is saying that that kind of money can be expensive or can ruin your company, it's true. Because they can basically force you because they have so much equity in your company because they've given you so much money, they can force you to make decisions that would perhaps make the company grow, but in a way you don't want it to or change your product or whatever.
So just wanted to give everyone the background there.
Thyme Sullivan: Yes. Good summary.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you. Investment 101. Okay. So I feel like this is a good time now to talk about your guys' partnership. Because I want to understand it. I want to know if you guys have a philosophy behind it, how it works. Because I personally have found partnership tricky. I love people. I'm a PR person. I've worked with people my whole life. But I have found that being in business partnership with people has been tricky for me. So I would love to just understand your baseline philosophy-
Denielle Finkel...: Tell you our story.
Johanna Almstea...: And how you enter into it and how it works.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, Thyme and I are cousins.
Johanna Almstea...: Which I love. Oh, I didn't even say that. I didn't say that in the beginning. I think I said you were related, but okay.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: They're cousins.
Denielle Finkel...: So we are cousins, but we hadn't seen each other in 30 years. Our dads both passed away young and so our lives just sort of separate. I was raised by my mom and my stepdad. And so it was when I left the fashion world seven years ago, I knew I had a cousin that lived an hour away from me and I was like, "All right, I've got to reach out to her." Our lives, there were parallel things because she has a son and a daughter, I have a son and daughter. Her kids are four years ahead of mine. And so it was like this parallel life and I was like, "I've got to reach out to her." And so I did. I sent her a DM on Facebook and I was like, "Hey, I'd love to grab lunch. I'm Denielle. I'm your cousin." And she responded. Of course, I think she called her aunts and was like, "Who the hell is this cousin?", but she did.
We ended up having lunch. And over that lunch, it was like a three-hour lunch, just hit it off. It was like an instantaneous ... The connection between the two of us, it started from that first interaction. And I say now, seven years later, Thyme is my best friend. Thyme is the sister I never had. This relationship is built on many different things, and I don't call it a partnership because it is family. We have our ups and our downs, we have the things that we're going to disagree on, but at the end of the day, we both have each other's back. There's a level of trust and respect that we have for one another that if we weren't family, I don't know if you'd have the same, but we truly do. But then on top of it all, we both are total complements to one another, which is even better.
Her skill set, my skill set, we work together in that way, which makes it even better as we build this business. But at the end of the day, we both say to one another, if we're not having fun while we're doing this, we've got to go find another job. And for seven years, we literally ... We love Sarah Blakely completely, but even more so. She says, "You can do serious things, but you don't have to take yourself so seriously." And that was something that was so important to us when we jumped in and left the large corporate world because we're like, "Look, we did that in our old life. We had to be serious. We had to show up. We couldn't just have fun."
And here we knew we could show up as ourselves, take it or leave it, and we could create the relationships that we wanted. And that's been the best part, is there is this trust, there's this respect. We're having fun along the way. And our mission, both of us, it's so clear because we're both going after the same mission. Neither one of us have stray things that are happening. That has been the magic sauce between the two of us. I mean, we talk to each other. Our kids and husband are always like, "Jeez. Seriously? You guys talk a hundred times a day."
Thyme Sullivan: Well, remember what I told you this weekend? I was walking on the beach with my daughter before I brought her back to college, and she said, "Who do you have the most fun with of all your friends?" And I go, "Denielle." And she was like, "Aw." She goes, "That's really funny." I was like, "I know." It does have to be fun. Because we both walked away from really big corporate jobs and there's been a lot of sacrifice. And if we didn't have such a crystal clear vision and enjoy what we're doing and enjoy the people that we're meeting like you along the way, and I know Denielle met you before, but I would never have met you Jo. And there's a lot of really incredibly interesting and fun, and it serves our creativity and our lifelong learner inner needs.
Johanna Almstea...: What happens when you don't agree?
Denielle Finkel...: It doesn't happen ... I mean, it happens, but it doesn't happen. No. Yeah. No. And we have our moments, but it's also it's one where we will talk through different things and be like no and better partner-
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah. We've never had a stalemate though. I think we always just kind of win somewhere. Because we're both really open. We've never had a single time when we couldn't figure it out.
Johanna Almstea...: That's great. And let's talk about boundaries because you're related and you're friends and you work together and you're running a company together. Are there any boundaries?
Thyme Sullivan: We share hotel rooms.
Denielle Finkel...: We share a hotel room everywhere we go. No. I dress her everywhere she goes.
Thyme Sullivan: She does. I know. My daughter said, she's like, "She really cleaned you up nice. You look good."
Johanna Almstea...: So you're her stylist.
Denielle Finkel...: No. The only boundary, which is probably way too much information, but sometimes the hotel rooms that we stay in are so small, Thyme has a rule. She's like, "If you're going to poo, you got to do it in the lobby."
Thyme Sullivan: You got to go down in the lobby. It's not happening in this tiny New York hotel room. That's a boundary. That's fair.
Denielle Finkel...: So I think that's probably the biggest boundary we have. That might be the only one.
Johanna Almstea...: I mean, that's pretty close. I was going to say, I have that boundary with more people than that. Okay. I've heard about business partners who do business partner counseling, almost like marriage counseling. Have you guys ever thought about it? Heard about it?
Denielle Finkel...: We did it for our team, and that was really important. It started with us. She spent time with the two of us, and then she then brought in the team. And I will say that doing that transformed our entire business and transformed our entire team.
Johanna Almstea...: Really?
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, it was the best thing we ever did.
Johanna Almstea...: And did you do it as a reaction to a problem or you were sort of doing it preemptively?
Denielle Finkel...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, okay.
Denielle Finkel...: We were coming off a very tough time. We had hired a team and just sort of extended that a little too long with that team, and it just caused a lot of a friction.
Thyme Sullivan: An outside agency that took too much control of our business that we should have called it sooner and we didn't.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. That's hard.
Thyme Sullivan: And it really did a lot of damage.
Denielle Finkel...: A lot of communication breakdown, the trust, the respect. And so this woman who came in, I mean she first really gave Thyme and me the time to share where we were at and really understand our relationship and then how that would then impact the team, and then the team, they got to spend time too. Then we all came together. And it truly transformed. And this was two years ago. Completely transformed our business.
Johanna Almstea...: Amazing.
Denielle Finkel...: It really allowed and opened up opportunities that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
Thyme Sullivan: It's true. I was not a believer in the process, but I was like, "Okay." Well, and it was just a really good way. And same with investors, with everybody on our team, you just have to be able to look at things from somebody else's perspective, and it really gives you much more clarity because we all want the same thing.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Well, I'm so glad it worked. That's amazing.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. It was amazing. It was amazing. My phrase that I say all the time, and Thyme knows this, is like we're in the business of humans. Our most important asset to anything that we do, especially as an business, are your people. And too often it gets pushed off to the side and we've got to invest there. We have to spend our time there. We have to ensure that there is the respect, there is the communication. There's going to be differences. And how do you then address those differences and how do you bring them to the table that don't make you defensive. Because we all have the same common interests. And that's really like at the end of the day, remember that the person sitting across from you, they may have other things going on that you think maybe in your mind, you're like, "Oh, well, they're pissed at me." No, they're actually not. They're just going through something else that you have no idea and by giving them the grace, it just shifts how relationship happened.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so funny because I have so many clients that are startups, and most of the time the team and the human resources part of things is neglected. And people don't want to take ... Partially because you guys know founder life is not easy and founder life you're so busy and you have to wear so many hats. And I find that I am often the person in the room saying, "We got to manage this team in a different way. We need to communicate in a different way. We need to set expectations. We need to onboard." All of that stuff. And I think it can be the reason that business succeeds or a reason that business fails. I've watched founders fuck it up so royally who had good investors, who had a good product, who had a good supply chain, and they could not figure out how to run a team. I think people really underestimate that skill and the attention that it needs and the idea of getting help when they can't do it themselves or need support. Everyone thinks they can do it. Most people can't.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep. So true.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. So do you have any advice for listeners who may be entering into a new partnership or who are already in a partnership that's proving itself difficult? Do you have any tricks?
Denielle Finkel...: Thyme?
Thyme Sullivan: I would say I think what works best for us and for our team is again, going back to the complimentary skillset. Just like I would say even my husband is a compliment to me. We're very different, but it's a compliment and finding the people around you that can fill in your blind spots. And Denielle was a big believer very early on, we all did strength finders and it was great because identifying what everybody's strengths are and leaning into those and building a team around that has really changed things. And I think that, Denielle, you've been great about the human thing that we get our team together. We're all remote and getting our team together offsite. Denielle cooks for all of us. I'm the DJ. I do the dishes and I bartend.
Denielle Finkel...: She's a bartender.
Johanna Almstea...: Nice.
Denielle Finkel...: I'm the chef's.
Johanna Almstea...: Music and clean up. I like it.
Denielle Finkel...: Here's where we are compliments again.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah, but I do. I just think that you do see founders. I don't know how people do it as solopreneurs, quite honestly, because there's been so many times it's a roller coaster ride and some days you're down and she's up or she's up and I'm down. To have that person that knows exactly what you're going through, and especially as an operator, because people just don't know. They only see the great LinkedIn posts, but-
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "Do you know what I had to get through to get there?"
Thyme Sullivan: Nobody's there when you're crying on your closet floor.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. Literally.
Thyme Sullivan: But she's there. I can pick up and call her anytime. But yeah, I think that's probably the secret sauce.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, we both do say, I can't imagine doing this alone. I really can't. All three of us are coming from these large corporate worlds prior. And you have teams and then you've got other teams, and then you've got somebody else.
Johanna Almstea...: So many people to do all the hard things.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. Well, and when we first started, we're like, "Wait. Who do we call for that? Oh, shit. I got to go do that." So you're learning all these things, but that we get to do. I look out to these solo founders, and there are many times I'm like, "Go find a co-founder if you can." Because-
Johanna Almstea...: So much pressure on one person.
Denielle Finkel...: It really is. Its so much pressure.
Thyme Sullivan: We actually didn't know how much the odds were stacked against us. We had no idea that-
Denielle Finkel...: We were so lucky we were naive. We were like, "God, we're going to be totally fine."
Johanna Almstea...: Ignorance is bliss.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, it's bliss. Oh, it was.
Thyme Sullivan: It really was. Wow. I'm like, people must have thought we were completely delusional. I'm really happy we were.
Denielle Finkel...: All our husbands did, but that's okay.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah, but that's fine.
Johanna Almstea...: Whatevs. Delusional smoosional. Sometimes you have to be. I mean, audacity is-
Thyme Sullivan: Sometimes you just need to believe like a little Ted Lasso.
Johanna Almstea...: You have to.
Denielle Finkel...: Ours was that we had just unwavering belief and I think that has been at the core from day one. This unwavering belief that we're going to keep working to the end of this mission and then can't wait for then this next generation to continue on with it. But there's this belief that this is going to happen. And also we're fighters. The two of us are total fighters. And so during those tough times, there have been a couple of moments we've been down on our knees and we're like, "Are we going to make it?" And we're like, "You know what? This isn't going to be the moment that's going to take us down. There've been other things that should have taken us down and we're not going to let this one. And so we're going to fight through this." And that was also another time we leaned into our investors and said, "Hey ..." Also cried. I turned off camera and my microphone and just sobbed on the other end and Thyme was like-
Thyme Sullivan: It was an ugly cry.
Denielle Finkel...: It was really ugly. It was really ugly. I was like, "This isn't going to go well."
Thyme Sullivan: [inaudible 00:38:59].
Denielle Finkel...: But in that moment-
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "I'm just going to take a minute."
Denielle Finkel...: But in that moment, the investor was like, "Look, I believe in what you guys are doing. We're going to help you figure this out. And yeah, what just happened is really bad. Really bad, ladies. But we're going to get you through." And so that is those moments.
Johanna Almstea...: I mean, I think the belief is huge, especially after going through fundraising when you just sit in those meetings and they just pick you apart. "Are you sure you believe this? Are you sure this is something valid?"
Thyme Sullivan: What's your defensibility? What's your moat? What's to stop somebody else from doing it?
Denielle Finkel...: As two moms, do you think you guys can handle this? We've been asked that.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, fuck you. Oh, fuck you.
Thyme Sullivan: Oh my God. I'll have to send you ... We keep a log of dumb shit people ask us.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God, can we do a whole episode? I'm just going to read the whole log and reply.
Thyme Sullivan: It's so good.
Johanna Almstea...: People are such fucking assholes sometimes. Sorry.
Thyme Sullivan: Or maybe a collection of cocktail napkins.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, that'd be so good. You could give them to all female founders. Be like just-
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, yes. Ooh, Thyme. Jo, you just gave her an idea.
Johanna Almstea...: See. There we go. I had a founder ... She's actually a solo ... Well, she's not a solopreneur because her husband is in her business, but she said basically she did some quote from Rocky like, "It's not like whether you're going to get hit, it's just like, how willing are you to keep getting hit, keep getting hit and keep getting back up?" She's like, "That's life as a founder. It's just a matter of not giving up."
Thyme Sullivan: But you know what's tricky is there's such a fine line. And Denielle and I talk about this all the time, that we were raised in this generation that you fight through no matter what. And that actually can be toxic because sometimes it's not your people or it's not your door to open and you need to pivot and move on and the resilience is so much more important than the grit that kept us in toxic environments or relationships or jobs. Really understanding that there's a very fine line. You don't have to fight to the death to open a door that's not meant to open for you. It's okay to go to another door.
Johanna Almstea...: I think that's hard, right?
Thyme Sullivan: It's super hard.
Johanna Almstea...: Especially for those of us who, again, you said we were raised to grind, man. And so I think it is hard to start to, "Okay, wait. Maybe I should tune into my intuition here. Maybe I should listen to the universe."
Thyme Sullivan: Yes. Because that's not quitting. To go to another door is not quitting. It's really being smart. It's insanity to keep trying to push that door open that's not meant to open. We've caught ourselves a few times doing that. We're like, "Wait a minute. This is not meant to be."
Denielle Finkel...: We're going to walk away.
Johanna Almstea...: Give it some space. Let it breathe a little bit. I think that's so hard. I find it hard for me.
Thyme Sullivan: Super hard.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm trying to get better at it, of just like, maybe this isn't the thing. Maybe your path here was to get you to the next thing, but maybe this isn't the thing. I think that's really good advice.
Thyme Sullivan: Well, and understanding when the adversity happens, when you do punched in the face and you will, that there's always something good on the other side of the adversity. We've seen it. We're like, "Oh, well, this worked out."
Johanna Almstea...: Usually. Almost always, there is something better. And that I think is interesting to ... It's like faith. You have to have faith. You have to trust that you have to trust the universe. You have to trust yourselves. You have to trust the work that you've done.
Denielle Finkel...: Trust your gut.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. And you have to trust that it's going to be okay.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep. We've learned to trust our gut and to really listen to ourselves so much more too, which has really been important in how we work with folks and some of the decisions we make.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm like a little bit of a psycho about trusting your gut. I feel very strongly about it. I think because I was raised the daughter of a Presbyterian minister in a very suppressed waspy home. And then I worked in the fashion industry.
Thyme Sullivan: That's a whole episode right there.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a whole episode. That could be a season.
Denielle Finkel...: You should actually, yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes. And then I worked in the fashion industry that was a grind. It goes against a lot of your self ... Not self-care. Like self-protective instincts. And most of the mistakes or big bad things that I've ever done where when I went against my gut. So I think it's so interesting, and it's interesting because you guys came from the corporate culture too, of you had to override your gut a lot of the time.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh yeah. All the time.
Johanna Almstea...: Because there was a bigger mission or a bigger thing that had to happen. So it's interesting to have to now at this point in our lives, tune back into that gut that we always knew was there, but now we got to massage it and make sure it knows it's loved and we appreciate it, and we're going to really listen to it this time. I think that's really hard, and I think it's really different and I think it's ... I mean, listen, I don't know. I'm not going to speak for men because I don't do that and I don't care if they're listening. But I think it is particularly like an ailment for women who are in our middle life. Right?
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Because I think a lot of our early life was spent overriding that gut or just not even tuning into it at all.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. The one thing I would say though, Jo, I go back and Thyme has heard this a hundred times. Probably more than that. I can tell you that my time at Kate equipped me to do what I'm doing now.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, a million percent.
Denielle Finkel...: The rest of my fashion world, there were certain things, but it was an environment that you were almost told to go take risks. We were in this environment of go try things differently, think differently. It gave me some of those muscles that now I can really lean into, but those are the beginning of those muscles that now I take so much pride in that time that I was there because the cohort of folks that we worked with, just everyone was in that same type of ... We all were doing the same thing.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, and it was part of the culture was that you did need to take risks.
Denielle Finkel...: It was the culture was like go and do this. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Go do something fucking crazy and hope it works out.
Denielle Finkel...: And it happens all the time. And so I think that that has been an enormous piece too of this. It's allowed us to use that muscle, especially with this. We call it the risk taking. Or these major pivots that we've done. It is getting skills like that early on that now have enabled us to make smarter decisions on what we're doing and don't sit on them. And I think that's the piece too that I used to love as well, is even if you made a mistake, you make it and then you learn quick and you go.
Johanna Almstea...: Keep going. Keep going.
Denielle Finkel...: Just keep going. Keep going and find another way.
Johanna Almstea...: Can't wallow in it.
Denielle Finkel...: No. And I look back to that time so often with a lot of pride, but also there's so much credit that I have to give to that time that helped build those muscles that are so critical to being an entrepreneur.
Johanna Almstea...: I mean, it's such a credit to the leadership there at the time and I think-
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, they were ... I mean, yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: I said this in my going away speech at my going away drinks, but for so long, the only way I could describe that place was that it was a yes place. It was like, yes, just go. Yeah. I would walk into Craig's office and be like, "I have this crazy idea-"
Denielle Finkel...: Oh yeah. All the time.
Johanna Almstea...: "That I think I should shoot a reality show in Dubai at the same time as opening a store."
Denielle Finkel...: Oh my god. Opening our guests.
Johanna Almstea...: And whatever.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh my god, I totally forgot.
Johanna Almstea...: And he'd be like-
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. He's like, "Okay. Yeah."
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. "Do it, but do it hard. Go. If you're going to do it, don't go half-ass."
Denielle Finkel...: Well, and then he got stuck in another country and oh yeah, all those things.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a whole other episode. So I think it was a place of yes. It was a place of just like, "Yeah, man, try it. Try it." And I think that that's huge and that's scary for a lot of entrepreneurs. It's especially scary who have investors who have strong opinions. That can be hard, and it can be hard to convince people that that's a good idea. But yeah, I think for people listening, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of that stuff.
Denielle Finkel...: Don't be afraid. It's so important.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What's the best part of your jobs? Thyme has something to say.
Thyme Sullivan: We are meeting really, really, really interesting, creative, smart, funny, and spectacularly successful ... A lot of people and a lot of women that we would never have crossed paths with if we weren't doing this and they're just all doing incredible things. And there's this whole wave and generation of women that are actually really supporting each other and lifting each other up and helping each other, and it is just incredible. Are you going to tell them about our week last week, Denielle? Is that where your head's going?
Denielle Finkel...: It is. It's just these extraordinary ... We are in rooms that we never would've been in before. When you're in your corporate world, you go with the same people. It's not even six degrees of separation. I can say in the fashion world, you know somebody of somebody of somebody of somebody. You always do. And then Thyme, your world, CPG would've been exactly the same. You know somebody of somebody of somebody. Here we are, the cross section and the rooms that we get to be in, you never. You just can't even. You're like, "How am I in this room? Why am I in this room?" But the other part is that we take advantage in the best way of we build relationships when we're in those rooms. So we don't just be there to show up and take every business card. That's not who we are. We want to actually have genuine conversations and so this trip that we just went on was because we had this connection, the energy with these six other women, or five other women, because the two of us, so there were seven women in total. You can't even describe the connection. These were strangers a year ago.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my gosh, it's only been a year.
Denielle Finkel...: A year. We went on this five day boat yacht trip with all of us on a boat and was unbelievable. And it was five days. Everyone just got along. We did amazing things. We danced. We stayed up too late. We drank too much. We ate amazing food. I had people jumping in the ocean that never would've jumped in the ocean. It was just getting outside of your comfort zone, being vulnerable, having these conversations that were so rich and meaningful that that is the place ... What Thyme and I say now all the time is say yes when you see that you're getting invited to things, because as an entrepreneur, you do have to get yourself out. You have to be out there, you've got to put yourself out there and sometimes it's hard. Thyme knows I'm an extra extrovert, so game on. Send me anywhere. I'll go and talk to anybody. And not that it's just like I'm going to go talk to them. I'm still about engaging and learning about that person. And so that's where when we're in that room, how do you make the most of those relationships with those folks and connect on a different level? And that's I think, the piece that we've taken away and that's what we love the most.
Johanna Almstea...: I think it's funny because that's come up a lot on this podcast of people's network, and I hate the word because I was always sort of afraid of it, which is funny for someone who was like a PR person. A very big network. But I think what you're getting to is not networking for the sake of networking, but allowing yourself to be open to real, vulnerable, true connection in those moments to people. You have no idea what delightful surprise is going to come up at one of these conferences or female founders, whatever, all this stuff. Because sometimes it feels like there's some young founders who are like, "I'm going to go and I'm going to get every business card and I'm going to like ..." Doot, doot, doot, doot doot. And people leave feeling like, "Eh. I don't know. I met this founder. Fine. Whatever." But they don't feel connected to. They don't feel heard. They don't feel seen. They don't feel understood. And I think that is something that I think also comes with life experience and time and also being an extrovert is probably a help because you make people feel heard and seen. But I think it's really important and really can be so enriching to your life. Not only to your business, but also to your life, to really enter into those interactions with an open heart. Like an open heart, and be ready for connection. I think that that's huge.
Denielle Finkel...: We are both energy people and so when we walk in a room, we're bringing our energy to that room, but we have this phrase. We really only want to be with folks that are batteries and not vacuums. We get to choose at this stage in our lives who we get to be with and you get to. So as our business, we get to choose and at this age we get to choose and so I want to be with batteries. I don't want to be with vacuums.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that term. Batteries not vacuums.
Thyme Sullivan: No. People are one or the other and it's so clear and you're like, "Oh my God. Yeah, you're either a battery or vacuum." Sometimes vacuums are family members and that's tricky.
Johanna Almstea...: Amen. Amen. It's so weird when you said vacuum, I got this feeling in my stomach.
Thyme Sullivan: Because you feel it when you go up to people, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. And you know it. I have those interactions-
Thyme Sullivan: You know it right away.
Johanna Almstea...: Where I'm like, "I know you're just using me for something."
Denielle Finkel...: You're like, "And I don't-"
Johanna Almstea...: I don't want to do this.
Thyme Sullivan: It's really interesting though, because there were years where we didn't leave our offices. We thought we just had to be in the office and grinding, grinding, grinding. Because it takes a lot of effort to go out and to-
Johanna Almstea...: Be in the world. Yes.
Thyme Sullivan: These events and to meet people and to follow up and to actually help people in a meaningful way. But it's been a critical part I think, of what's brought our business to the next level. And when we see founders that we know are just staying in their home-based office all day long because they think that's the only way they're going to get to the top, you actually need other people too.
Johanna Almstea...: You need other people and you need batteries, right? Sometimes you don't realize. And I know particularly for creatives and introverts, sometimes it's not a battery to go out, but as someone who spent my life making people go out into the world, go to events that they didn't want to go to, it's so true. And so much business happens when it's not happening. You don't even think it's happening and then all of a sudden you get that call six months later and they're like, "Hey, we met at that dinner and I loved your energy and you mentioned this product and my company's looking for something." I think people don't realize. It's like the soft skills part of the networking stuff that people don't realize and I know that it's really difficult for a lot of people and it's scary, but it's so important. And I think if people took the pressure off and just allowed themselves to go with an open heart as opposed to a shiny portfolio, I think it would help people maybe. I don't know. That's my tip for the day.
Denielle Finkel...: I like it.
Thyme Sullivan: I like it. We'll keep it.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What's the worst part of your jobs?
Thyme Sullivan: Fundraising.
Johanna Almstea...: Amen also.
Denielle Finkel...: That's it.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: That's our coined phrase. There's no fun in fundraising.
Johanna Almstea...: No. But there's fun in the funds once you get them.
Denielle Finkel...: There is. Yeah. It's a tough world for women raising money.
Johanna Almstea...: I think it's so nice to me when I see these women who are now investors because they've gone through your process. They've done the whole rigmarole and they've raised money and then they've had an event as we say, or they've sold their business or sold a portion of their business for a lot of money and then they have the personal money or they start a fund and they start investing in female founders because it's brutal out there, right?
Denielle Finkel...: That's what we want to do. Our end goal is keep building and building and building this, but our end goal is that we can give back to the women so we don't have to do what we've gone through.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Well, let's put it out there. I mean, what are we going to do? Are we going to sell this business to somebody we think? Are we going to go public? What's happening? Let's manifest it. Let's get it out there.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh no, we do. We talk about all ... No, this is going to be a strategic. When you really break this down, there's nothing else that's in the bathrooms in the physical stall. And again, when you think about toilet paper, it's a massive industry. This is total blue ocean. If there is anything, it's the archaic thing from 1980s. There's been zero innovation. This is the first time-
Johanna Almstea...: It's always empty.
Denielle Finkel...: It's always empty. It's always broken. And the product is from 1980s.
Johanna Almstea...: And who has a fucking quarter or nickel or whatever the hell it is?
Denielle Finkel...: Exactly. And so this really, this is finally that free option that's there as a solution that goes directly in the stall and it's right there and it's super simple, it's super easy. There's no tools that are involved to actually install it. Everything that we have done is we made it so simple that these large organizations ... We've been very lucky. We have huge organizations behind this like JP Morgan Chase, American Express, Citizens Bank, Pepsi, Toyota, Peloton. The names go on and on.
Johanna Almstea...: Good job, those companies. Good job for getting on board.
Denielle Finkel...: They are. And you know what, it's more right now. Our bigger piece around this is raising awareness to letting folks know that ... And this is, Jo, your world of PR. The importance of getting that message out in the storytelling of it. Because what has happened is you're actually seeing this crazy thing that's happening is that you actually have designers and construction companies that have making the decision to not even now put even the horrible metal machines in the bathrooms because aesthetically they don't like it. And so we're going back 40 years and we need to educate these folks that are earlier in the process that there's another solution that is modern, that's sleek, that's discreet, that goes right there in the stall with you. And so that's a big piece of we're raising funds to really maximize the growth that we're experiencing right now, but also we've got to let people know.
Johanna Almstea...: Tell people about it. It's funny, I was telling my husband this morning, I was like, "I'm doing an interview." He said, "Who are you interviewing?" And I was explaining and he looked at me, he was like, "I never thought about that." He owns a company. He needs to think about it. And he's a dude.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes he is.
Johanna Almstea...: But it was interesting to see his expression like, "Oh my God. Yeah. That's never occurred to me." Okay, I have two questions. One is more a point of clarification because I realized we didn't actually speak about the actual product. So what the product is, and I want to make sure we're clear. It is free to the ultimate consumer. It is paid for by the company that is having it installed in their offices or whatever. And then it is dispensing both tampons and pads?
Denielle Finkel...: Correct.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes. Both tampons and pads in the individual stall in all of their corporate bathrooms. I just want to make sure. I realize we didn't really actually say that out loud, so I want to make sure we say exactly what this is. So it's free to the end user and these corporations are really smart that they are buying into this because it makes period equity a real thing in their workplace.
Denielle Finkel...: And two other things. It's organic.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes. Very important.
Denielle Finkel...: We always say that as a secondary because the most important thing is access is number one, and then yes, we've got a better product out there. So that we're super proud of. So it's the organic piece. We are also the only one who is offering a tampon that is in a plastic like ... So ours is a plant-based applicator. It looks and feels like plastic, but it's made out of sugar cane. Everything else that's out there is cardboard. No woman wants to use cardboard. So it looks and feels just like plastic. Yeah. So those are the two things we take tremendous pride in.
Johanna Almstea...: So not only is it an amazing product, at the end of the day what you're using and putting in or near your body, it is also delivered in a way that is respectful and humane and good for women. So we love that. Okay. That was important to me.
Thyme Sullivan: And it's not just workplaces too. I mean we put it everywhere. We're in everything from workplaces to banks to manufacturing to construction sites.
Denielle Finkel...: Schools.
Thyme Sullivan: Schools.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Schools.
Thyme Sullivan: Stadiums. Everywhere.
Johanna Almstea...: So schools was the next question I wanted to ask you because this was something that I think I learned from you guys during our initial conversation we had many years ago when you were first starting out, was this idea that there are still young women in the world who are not going to school. I'm not going to even say the world. I'm going to say in the United States.
Denielle Finkel...: US. Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: And in New York. That are not going to school during the time when they have their period because they cannot afford the supplies or their family cannot afford the supplies that they need in order to stay sanitary and clean and not be leaking all over the place. That is fucking insane.
Denielle Finkel...: It's one in four girls in the United States.
Johanna Almstea...: What the actual fuck? That's crazy.
Denielle Finkel...: It's crazy. And I think in New York City it's actually the number might be one in three. So these numbers are insane that that barrier is still being put in place for young girls, but then also women once it comes to the workforce, it's the same exact thing. And so the importance of this, this is a women's health issue, but it's also just a basic need. So really this gets wrapped up into many different factors. But no, this is real. Schools is a huge piece.
Johanna Almstea...: This is huge. So I feel like every person who is listening, you need to go out to any place that you work, any place that you go to school, any place that you know of anyone that works, any place that you know an owner of and figure it the fuck out. Tell them to figure it the fuck out. Tell them to get this product in their restrooms right now because this is crazy. This is crazy town. So if you're listening, this is something that if you don't experience it, you probably don't think about, and it's something that's affecting one in three girls or one in four girls in our country. That's bonkers. So everyone just needs to start asking questions and start pushing buttons out there, people, and call you Unicorn. Thanks.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. But also I take ... Thank you. Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: As your unofficial PR person, that's what I say. Figure it the fuck out.
Denielle Finkel...: But I take that what your husband said before though, he didn't think about it. And so that's actually part of it. There's no fault to men. They're not in our bathrooms, and so they're not thinking about it. This is an education piece.
Johanna Almstea...: They also don't even know what the fuck is happening in there, by the way.
Denielle Finkel...: No. No, they don't. They have no idea how many tampons we use. They have no clue. But as soon as we equate it to ... When we say to men and we say it all the time ... It's actually how we got in JPMorgan Chase. I asked Jamie Dimon, the global CEO of JPMorgan Chase at a cocktail party, "Jamie, do you carry toilet paper around with you?" What that allowed us to do was to get into-
Johanna Almstea...: You said that?
Thyme Sullivan: Oh yes she did.
Johanna Almstea...: Good girl.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes I did. But once you bring this to men's attention, when you actually say to them, "You're not carrying toilet paper around with you. You're not going to the common area to get toilet paper.", the light bulb goes off. We also love-
Johanna Almstea...: The toilet paper is a major click. Yeah.
Denielle Finkel...: We love men that have daughters because they're like, "Wait. What does my daughter have to do? Wait, I don't want her to have to go do that." So those have been the sweet spot of educating-
Johanna Almstea...: Again, like you said, they're not trying to do this because they're mean. They just don't think about it. So awareness is a huge deal. So everyone listening, spread the awareness.
Thyme Sullivan: A lot of guys will say, "Oh, well, we do carry period products." They have the cardboard applicator ones in a sad basket by the sink that gets all soggy and they're products that nobody wants to use. I'm like, "That's actually not helping. You're not solving the problem."
Johanna Almstea...: I mean, you're trying, but that's not helping.
Thyme Sullivan: Right. Exactly. I would be able to keep the toilet paper on the counter for you for all of about one day and you'd be like, "Absolutely not." Like same.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Exactly. I love the toilet paper analogy. It really, really works. Okay. I really want you guys to have a massive communications campaign and a big awareness campaign. My brain is going, so we're going to talk about that later.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I could talk to you guys forever, so we have to keep going. What is something you guys each individually once believed about yourself that you've now since outgrown?
Denielle Finkel...: That I used to believe about myself that I've now outgrown?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: I think I was caught in the trap of happy and expectation. Like when this happens, I'll be happy, when this happens, I'll be happy. And I think what we've learned on this journey is that it's not the end game. It's really the journey itself that has been really incredible. And I think we just have such a more appreciation for every single day and everything that we get to experience. Whereas typically you were trying to just chase the job and chase the ... It's redefining success.
Johanna Almstea...: But you can be happy during the process. Right? That it's not the end game. Yeah. That's huge.
Denielle Finkel...: I love that one, Thyme. And then I think for me, mine was the importance of taking care of myself actually is a critical thing. I missed that the entire time I was in fashion. The entire time. Too many moments that I just didn't take care of myself, didn't focus on me, and if we are not functioning, our marriage isn't functioning, our kids aren't functioning, the business ... So it all has a ripple effect and that has been something I take a lot of pride in now because in the past it was always like the work, the work, the work, the work, the work. That was my priority.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm still working on that. I know.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, you got it.
Johanna Almstea...: Suck at it. I really suck at it, but I'm getting better. I'm getting better. And every time someone says it on this podcast, I remember it and I do something better. Is there something that you guys have said no to that you wish that you had said yes to? Thyme's like, "Is that a trick question?"
Thyme Sullivan: Said no to but wish we said yes.
Denielle Finkel...: Something we said no to that we wish we said yes.
Thyme Sullivan: We don't say no very often. We're kind of-
Denielle Finkel...: We don't say no very often.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a trend on this podcast, by the way. People who come on this podcast are like yes people.
Thyme Sullivan: Well, Shonda. The year of yes.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah, the year of yes. That was our big thing. Yeah. I don't think that there-
Thyme Sullivan: We really don't carry a lot of regrets.
Denielle Finkel...: We don't.
Thyme Sullivan: What do they say? Our rocket ship doesn't have any rearview mirrors. Boom.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that. So true, right?
Denielle Finkel...: She always has good zingers.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm going to put that on a t-shirt. That's good.
Thyme Sullivan: Right. We need merch.
Johanna Almstea...: You need a merch. I love it. Okay. So now we are at the very, very exciting point in this interview where we do the lightning round of silly questions. Much of them are food related, mostly just because I like to talk about food and I also feel like food says a lot about people's personalities, so that's why I like to do it. You're not allowed to overthink this. I don't have a feeling neither of you will. It looks like you're both pretty fired up today. So I'm going to go Thyme first then Denielle. Okay? Ultimate comfort food.
Thyme Sullivan: A cosmo.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Denielle Finkel...: I can't. I can't.
Thyme Sullivan: Maybe a [inaudible 01:03:14] and Cointreau because triple sec sucks and the dirty rocks are on the side.
Denielle Finkel...: And dirty rocks on the side.
Thyme Sullivan: You're welcome.
Johanna Almstea...: Dirty rocks?
Denielle Finkel...: She's like an 80-year-old woman. She wants the dirty rocks because it extends her drink for as long as it goes.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, I thought you meant actual like a dirty martini rocks and I was like-
Thyme Sullivan: No. You know the ice that they make in the shaker?
Johanna Almstea...: Oh yeah. 100%.
Thyme Sullivan: I want that in a little sidecar glass.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay, so Cointreau, no triple sec. I agree. Triple sec sucks and it gives you a really bad headache.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God. That's my favorite fucking answer I've ever had on this show. Okay, Denielle, ultimate comfort food. How do you top that?
Denielle Finkel...: I can't. A charcuterie board. Like the perfect charcuterie board.
Thyme Sullivan: But you love pesto.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah, but that's not like my-
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah, that's true.
Johanna Almstea...: Charcuterie board?
Denielle Finkel...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: You need to come to my house. When my house is done, I'm renovating my house, I'm going to have a huge party and my husband is like the master of charcuterie boards.
Denielle Finkel...: I've seen yours. Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. We don't fuck around.
Denielle Finkel...: You do like a whole countertop.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. I've seen yours. Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: There's a bounty. Bountiful. Actually, it's so funny. One time Sharon ... You remember Sharon Labar.
Denielle Finkel...: Of course.
Johanna Almstea...: Sharon's going to come on the show probably. She came over to my house one time and we had charcuterie and she was like, "There's just so much of it."
Denielle Finkel...: There's nothing better.
Johanna Almstea...: She's like, "I really just like the amount of everything." Can't fuck around with it. Piles. Piles of meat and cheese and-
Denielle Finkel...: Can't wait.
Johanna Almstea...: Pickled vegetables
Denielle Finkel...: The best.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Thyme, what did you want to be when you grew up?
Thyme Sullivan: Molly Ringwald.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh yeah. In Sixteen Candles or what era?
Thyme Sullivan: All of it.
Johanna Almstea...: Pretty in Pink? Okay. All of it. Denielle, what about you?
Denielle Finkel...: I wanted to be a vet.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God. Me too. For a minute. And then I realized I would have to put dogs to sleep and I didn't want to do that anymore.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh no. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Thyme, what's something you're really good at?
Thyme Sullivan: I have two superpowers.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay, good. Tell me both.
Thyme Sullivan: I do not get bit by mosquitoes and I always find the perfect parking spot.
Johanna Almstea...: Those are major life hacks.
Denielle Finkel...: No, no. You don't even understand. The parking spot is something that makes me so angry. We will be going to the same event, same place, whatever, same meeting. I will literally, all of a sudden I'll drive past wherever and she's sitting there on her ... Just like, "Oh. Ha ha."
Thyme Sullivan: Every time it happens, I go, "Oh [inaudible 01:05:11]."
Denielle Finkel...: And I'm literally, I'm like, "Fuck you." I end up driving around 10 times. I end up in a parking lot.
Thyme Sullivan: Every time.
Denielle Finkel...: Always.
Thyme Sullivan: Every time.
Denielle Finkel...: Always.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, Denielle, maybe we need to work on your parking karma. Did you do something bad to a parking attendant once?
Denielle Finkel...: I didn't. I didn't.
Johanna Almstea...: Because clearly, Thyme has worked it out.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, she just makes it worse for me now because she always gets the first one.
Johanna Almstea...: Because now you get angry.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. And the thing is I'm always on time. So this is the thing that also drives me even more crazy. She's always late and I'm always on time.
Johanna Almstea...: And she pulls right in.
Denielle Finkel...: And so she pulls right in and she's like ... Always.
Thyme Sullivan: Never miss.
Johanna Almstea...: Now you're in a negative feedback cycle though with the parking, I think, Denielle. I think we got to work on this. Okay. And you don't get bit by some mosquitoes, Thyme? What the fuck? That's amazing.
Thyme Sullivan: I know.
Johanna Almstea...: I get eaten alive and I hate it.
Denielle Finkel...: What does Sully say? What does your husband say?
Johanna Almstea...: It makes me so grumpy.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah, my husband thinks they don't like wine, which is possible.
Johanna Almstea...: They don't like wine?
Denielle Finkel...: Mosquitoes don't like wine.
Johanna Almstea...: No, that's not true. Because I drink wine and no. I wish it was.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah. But yeah, it's weird. Weird superpowers.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Denielle, what is one of yours? Obviously it's not parking, so what is it?
Denielle Finkel...: It's not parking. No. One of my superpowers-
Johanna Almstea...: What are you good at?
Denielle Finkel...: I love to connect people. That is my love language.
Thyme Sullivan: See? Much more useful.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. My other love language is cooking, so that is something that really ... If I could cook for everybody and just from two people to an entire dinner party of 30, game on.
Johanna Almstea...: Have you heard about this podcast called Eat My Words? It's all about-
Denielle Finkel...: I haven't. I know it is.
Johanna Almstea...: It's all about cooking and connecting people. You really should give it a listen.
Denielle Finkel...: I've listened to all your episodes, lady.
Johanna Almstea...: I love it. Okay. Thyme, what's something you're really bad at?
Thyme Sullivan: Being on time.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Denielle, we know you're good at being on time and you're bad at parking, but give us something else. What are you bad at, Denielle?
Denielle Finkel...: What am I really bad at? I'm not great at gardening.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, really?
Denielle Finkel...: My mom has a total green thumb and I just didn't hit my ... I try.
Johanna Almstea...: I know. Me too.
Denielle Finkel...: And it's something I would really like to be good at.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm not good either. I'm not.
Denielle Finkel...: It's like upsetting.
Johanna Almstea...: And I had a professional gardener on my show and I had to admit that I suck at it too.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. And I'm married to an arborist.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah, you are married to an arborist.
Johanna Almstea...: It's not good. Yeah., I get it. Okay. So you suck at gardening. It's okay. We can work on that. That's a skill I do believe that can be learned.
Denielle Finkel...: You could. Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Which I'm not sure you can learn about finding a parking spot, so maybe we're right. Thyme, what is your favorite word?
Thyme Sullivan: Oh, my favorite word. It's actually cacophony.
Johanna Almstea...: Cacophony?
Thyme Sullivan: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my goodness. Tell me why that's your favorite word. I love that word.
Thyme Sullivan: It's just a wonderful word. Because I like to be in lively places with a lot of noise and energy and yeah, it's like a cacophony.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God. And it's such a good word. Okay. That is my favorite. Yours is what?
Denielle Finkel...: Fuck.
Johanna Almstea...: Fuck. Yeah. You're not alone on this podcast.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Thyme, you are alone on this podcast. No one has ever-
Thyme Sullivan: I don't even know where that one came from. I'm like, I don't know.
Johanna Almstea...: I love it though.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh God.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Least favorite word, Thyme?
Denielle Finkel...: No.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Denielle?
Denielle Finkel...: Mine starts with a C and it ends with a T.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I appreciate you keeping it kind of clean.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. Just for that one.
Johanna Almstea...: I can't say that word.
Denielle Finkel...: It's horrible.
Johanna Almstea...: I don't like that word.
Denielle Finkel...: It's horrible. Horrible.
Johanna Almstea...: My kids came home one day and asked me if there was a C word, and I was like, "There is and I'm not going to tell you what it is."
Denielle Finkel...: Don't. I hate it. I hate that word. It's just terrible.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay, good.
Thyme Sullivan: Don't move to Australia. They use it freely.
Johanna Almstea...: Where? In Australia? Yeah. UK also. Yeah. It's funny and it's always very off-putting to me. Okay. Thyme, least favorite food? Like deal breaker, you're not eating it. No way.
Thyme Sullivan: I don't know. Geez. Maybe liver.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Liver. What about you?
Denielle Finkel...: Mine's tongue.
Johanna Almstea...: Tongue. No one has said that yet. Okay. Thyme, best piece of advice you've ever received?
Thyme Sullivan: I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier that ... Well, there's two that I really like. That success doesn't make you happy, but happiness makes you successful. And I love the quote ... It's a Ford quote. It's, "Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right."
Johanna Almstea...: There you go. That's a good one. Self-fulfilling prophecy. I like that one. Okay. Denielle, what about you? Best piece of advice you've ever received.
Denielle Finkel...: Mine goes back to ... I mean, this was really the old days, and it goes back to my role on model and still my mentor, Adrienne Lazarus. My job had just been eliminated and I was out pounding the pavement and she's like, "Stop what you're doing. You've created an amazing network. Enjoy your severance. Go have another baby." And I took a year and a half off and I knew I'd always go back to work because I knew I always wanted to be a working mom. But that I actually took and listened to her in that moment where all I knew was the career. I had to go and go and go and go to the next thing. And that I actually listened to that advice and that actually changed how my life trajectory was. That is probably one of the most profound pieces of feedback and advice that somebody had given me.
Johanna Almstea...: Take a beat. Take a minute.
Denielle Finkel...: Take a pause. It's okay to take a pause.
Johanna Almstea...: It's okay to take a pause.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Thyme, if your personality were a flavor, what would it be?
Thyme Sullivan: If it was a flavor?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: Oh, it'd probably be hot sauce.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, I'd be a spicy margarita. One with mezcal.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh yeah, you would. So much fun.
Denielle Finkel...: But mine would be with mezcal because I like it a little smoky, so I also have that-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh. So you're deep. A little moody, a little bit feisty.
Thyme Sullivan: That's a really fun AI game, by the way, we played with our friends.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, it was so much fun.
Thyme Sullivan: Because your AI knows you. If you could be a car, what kind of car would you be? If you could be a-
Denielle Finkel...: An animal, what would you be?
Thyme Sullivan: A Disney character. What would you be?
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, that's so funny. We play this in the car with my kids. I don't do AI with it. We genuinely ask these questions.
Denielle Finkel...: But throw it into ChatGPT. Oh my God. It's the craziest thing in the entire world.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So spicy margarita and a hot sauce.
Denielle Finkel...: Sure.
Johanna Almstea...: Are you like a red hot sauce or are you like a green hot sauce?
Thyme Sullivan: I was a redhead when I was a kid. I've never colored my hair. It just gets lighter. [inaudible 01:11:07].
Denielle Finkel...: That's why she wanted to be Molly Ringwald.
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah. That's why I wanted be because I was a red, red, super redhead.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Thyme, what was your first paid job the first time you ever got paid to do anything?
Thyme Sullivan: Oh, I was a really bad Chinese food waitress. I got fired three times.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh. They kept hiring you back?
Thyme Sullivan: They did. I would go back and say, "Sorry I didn't show up. That was rude."
Johanna Almstea...: Maybe it was your spicy personality.
Thyme Sullivan: And people would always be like, "You're not Chinese." I'd be like, "No kidding." When I got to the table. Thanks.
Johanna Almstea...: Not on brand.
Thyme Sullivan: It was awesome. It was amazing.
Johanna Almstea...: Denielle, what was your first paid job?
Denielle Finkel...: Mine was a paper route with my brother.
Johanna Almstea...: Nice. Were you on a bike?
Denielle Finkel...: Bikes. Oh yeah, we were on bikes.
Johanna Almstea...: And the crossbody bag and you tossed it while you were on-
Denielle Finkel...: Yep. Tossed them.
Johanna Almstea...: I feel like that's quite a skill.
Denielle Finkel...: But I was his assistant, and so I think I might've made 25 cents the entire time. But oh yeah. He's like, "I'll pay you in lollipops." And I was like, "Okay. That sounds great."
Johanna Almstea...: Oh wow. So you might've been part of a scam.
Denielle Finkel...: Totally.
Johanna Almstea...: You might've been victim of a paper route Ponzi scheme.
Thyme Sullivan: Do you want to know what our new favorite piece of clothing is? When we were with our friends, she said we all had to bring caftans and we had to go buy them, and it's the most magnificent piece of clothing probably.
Johanna Almstea...: Have you never worn a caftan before? This is news to you?
Thyme Sullivan: No.
Denielle Finkel...: She had no idea. I had to buy it for her.
Thyme Sullivan: I had no idea. I was so excited. Denielle picked out an amazing one, and so there's this lovely picture of all seven of us wearing-
Johanna Almstea...: I saw the picture. I saw that picture. You were looking gorgeous.
Thyme Sullivan: I'm like, oh my God. I know. We can wear it and go out for walktails, like be very Palm Beach.
Johanna Almstea...: What's a walktail?
Thyme Sullivan: Walking and drinking.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh. I just thought that was life.
Thyme Sullivan: Walktails.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. I like a walktail. I love a caftan because you can sleep in it. You can take it to the beach. You can wear it to a party.
Denielle Finkel...: It was amazing.
Thyme Sullivan: This is too late in my life to find out about it.
Johanna Almstea...: No, I feel like it's just the right time. I feel like it's just the right time. I feel like you're entering your caftan era and you know what's going to happen? Life that you need to wear a caftan-
Denielle Finkel...: All the time.
Johanna Almstea...: All the time.
Thyme Sullivan: So many people have commented on how funny that is, and I was like, it is age appropriate.
Johanna Almstea...: If you build it, it will come. If you wear the caftan, the chic events will happen.
Denielle Finkel...: Yes. There we go. Thyme.
Johanna Almstea...: I feel really good about this for you, Thyme. I'm really happy for you. This is great.
Thyme Sullivan: We've got another fun fact. So years ago when we were TOP, we registered National Tampon Day, May 12th, and that wasn't that exciting. And I mean, we celebrate it every year, but it's fine. Well, this year for the National Registry, we registered September 9th. It's coming up. National Bring a Unicorn to Work Day. And that is our call to action for everybody to ask for Unicorn in their place of work.
Johanna Almstea...: I love this.
Thyme Sullivan: Bring a Unicorn to Work Day. Who knew it was a thing? We did because we registered it. And you too can register anything you want for $250 on the thing.
Johanna Almstea...: If you bill it, it will come.
Denielle Finkel...: Exactly.
Johanna Almstea...: There you go.
Thyme Sullivan: It's the best money we ever spent.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Last supper tonight. You're leaving this body and this earth. Don't worry. It's not bad. You've just graduated. You're ready for the next realm. It's all good. You might be wearing a caftan, you might not. That's up to you.
Denielle Finkel...: Definitely the caftan.
Johanna Almstea...: What are you eating tonight? Thyme, what are you eating tonight?
Thyme Sullivan: I think mine's just going to be a real nice bolognese.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, I love a bolognese. And what are you drinking with it?
Thyme Sullivan: I would start with a cosmo and then I would have some red wine.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And do you have a pasta shape that you like your bolognese on? Are you like a linguini? Are you a penne? Are you a rigatoni?
Thyme Sullivan: Maybe a long flat noodle might be nice.
Johanna Almstea...: Like a tagliatelle or pappardelle. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And are you putting cheese on it? Like some parmesan?
Thyme Sullivan: Yeah. The guy will come across with a grater. Yeah. And I'll let him.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay, so a cosmo first, then our pasta and our wine. I like it. Okay. Denielle, what about you?
Denielle Finkel...: Mine would be pesto. Homemade pesto. I would have a rigatoni. I have pesto homemade in my house at all times.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh. You're a rigatoni pesto.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh. You know what, I could actually go like pachieri also. I like a good pachieri. But oh yeah. Homemade pesto, always in my house. I have it all the time. My kids love it. Die. Like we all ... Yeah. That is my-
Johanna Almstea...: And your traditional basil pesto, we're talking, right?
Denielle Finkel...: Oh, basil. Basil, pine nuts.
Johanna Almstea...: We're not putting any other weird herbs in there? Nope. Okay.
Denielle Finkel...: Nope.
Johanna Almstea...: And are you putting anything else? Do you do peas or do you chopped tomato or anything?
Denielle Finkel...: No. I like really light but with fresh parm on it, that's my go-to.
Johanna Almstea...: I love it.
Denielle Finkel...: That is my ride or die. Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And what are you drinking with your pesto?
Denielle Finkel...: I'm a white wine girl because I have rosacea, so red is really bad for my rosacea.
Johanna Almstea...: But you're dying, so it doesn't matter if you have rosacea.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah, you're right. Oh my god.
Johanna Almstea...: It's your last meal, girl. You can get-
Denielle Finkel...: I need a really amazing Italian red. A good Tuscan. A really just heavy-
Johanna Almstea...: Like a super Tuscan? Do a big-
Denielle Finkel...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Denielle Finkel...: Heavy body. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: And you're going to just go out red faced and flushed.
Denielle Finkel...: I guess I will, yeah. All my capillaries will all blow, but it's fine. It's totally fine.
Johanna Almstea...: You'll come to the pearly gates and they'll say, "You're so glowing."
Denielle Finkel...: I know. They will.
Johanna Almstea...: There we go. Okay. Have you ever had a moment in your life when you've had to eat your words? Where you had to take it back?
Thyme Sullivan: Which time? Yeah. Too many times. Foot in mouth.
Johanna Almstea...: Do you have a good one that you can share with us?
Thyme Sullivan: Like a big I told you so sandwich?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. Something that you were like, "I shouldn't have said it that way," or, "I was too harsh," or, "I was inappropriate." Denielle's like, "I think I have one for you."
Thyme Sullivan: I don't know. Can you think of one, Denielle?
Denielle Finkel...: Thyme just has zingers. And there are moments that you're sometimes like, "Wait. Did she just say that?" Especially three or four cocktails in. But I wouldn't say that it's like eat your words. You just belly laugh from some of the things that she says. Yeah. She should eat her words actually about how I organize a dishwasher. That's what you need to eat your words on.
Thyme Sullivan: Oh, no. It's like you never did a puzzle as a kid. I don't understand it.
Denielle Finkel...: I live on puzzles.
Thyme Sullivan: You give prime real estate to terrible glassware. No. You do it wrong. I want her to eat her words on that.
Johanna Almstea...: I sense some tension here.
Denielle Finkel...: Oh yeah, totally. She fired me. She actually fired me from-
Thyme Sullivan: I did. Unload and reload the dishes.
Johanna Almstea...: I can agree. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen yours, Denielle, so I'm not going to judge, but I have very strong feelings about how the dishwasher is.
Denielle Finkel...: All right, so then Thyme's going to be on your team. She's already fired me from her team so it's fine.
Johanna Almstea...: There's specific places for specific things. None of this haphazard business.
Thyme Sullivan: Don't they say that in every relationship there's somebody that knows how to load the dishwasher and somebody who loads it like a feral squirrel?
Johanna Almstea...: Like a crazy person. Like a psychopath. Okay. Denielle, have you ever had a moment when you've had to eat your words?
Denielle Finkel...: All the time. I say stuff. Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: Actually, you know what? Because there's been a lot of times when Denielle has dragged me to events and I go kicking and screaming and then I'm like, "Oh, you were right. That was a good one. And we met some good people, whatever." But I also think, Denielle, you were so good at the reframe. Some days I'll wake up and be like, "I can't believe I have to ..." She's like, "You get to do that today." And I was like, "Oh. You're the queen of the reframe." I really appreciate that.
Denielle Finkel...: I do a lot of reframing. Yes. Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: She does a lot of that.
Denielle Finkel...: I'm very quick to say no on certain things. Very quickly. People are like, "You didn't even think." I was like, no. But I sometimes have to eat my words with that because I'm so quick sometimes on my nos.
Johanna Almstea...: That's good to know.
Denielle Finkel...: I can be a little good too quick on my decisive. Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Thyme, where is your happy place?
Thyme Sullivan: There's no place like home. There really isn't. I love my home. I really do. I love it. We've lived in this home for 24 years. I absolutely love it. I love my backyard. I love our pool. I love our chickens. I love all of it. I love the sunlight that comes in. I just love it.
Johanna Almstea...: What a good place to be then. You're in your happy place every day.
Thyme Sullivan: I would never leave it if Denielle didn't make me.
Denielle Finkel...: It's true. Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: Denielle, where's your happy place?
Denielle Finkel...: My kitchen.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Denielle Finkel...: You could put me in there any stressful moment.
Johanna Almstea...: What's your favorite thing to cook in your kitchen?
Denielle Finkel...: Oh God. I mean, anything or anything. I mean, we do a lot of pasta, a lot of roasted chickens, soups. Every week we've got fresh chicken cutlets.
Thyme Sullivan: You're a really good cook.
Denielle Finkel...: Kind of do a lot of this ... Yeah. But I will cook anything.
Thyme Sullivan: I like my laundry room because nobody in my house knows where it is or can find me. I can be in there all by myself and listen to podcasts and people-
Johanna Almstea...: I think you're the first person that's ever said that they're happy place is a laundry room.
Thyme Sullivan: I love my laundry room. It's my room. Nobody even goes at it, ever.
Johanna Almstea...: I love it. Okay. What do you wear when you feel like you need to take on the world? So she's making you go out of your house, Thyme, and you have to go to a big party or a big event or a big meeting. What do you wear?
Thyme Sullivan: Oh my God. Well, I would have Denielle dress me. This Frances Valentine green dress is the most amazing thing in the entire world. We went to her book launch. She was best friends with Kate Spade, as I'm sure you know. And I was coveting this dress and Denielle's like, "You actually have to buy that power dress. It's magnificent."
Denielle Finkel...: So beautiful.
Thyme Sullivan: I love it. It makes me so happy. I would like to wear it to the supermarket and to the park and everywhere.
Johanna Almstea...: And in your laundry room listening to podcasts.
Thyme Sullivan: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes. I love that. Congratulations. Everyone needs a great dress like that.
Denielle Finkel...: She's got a bunch now.
Johanna Almstea...: That's good.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, two things. Mine is always, I love a good blowout. So curly hair girl, give me a blowout. That's always my first accessory. And then two other things is I love just any dresses. I am a dress girl. Put me in a good dress, put me in a good shirt dress. Just love to be in a dress. And then either some statement earrings, some statement bracelet, some statement necklace. Always-
Johanna Almstea...: Oh yes, you always love a good accessory.
Denielle Finkel...: Yeah. A big piece.
Johanna Almstea...: Bold. Bold, big accessory.
Thyme Sullivan: Oh my god, Denielle bought me the best clutch. It's a beaded Kate Spade clutch that says Life of the Party. I love it. It makes me so happy.
Johanna Almstea...: So cute. I love that. Okay. Go-to coping mechanism on a bad day. Thyme, what do you do?
Thyme Sullivan: Oh, walk at the beach. Go to the beach.
Johanna Almstea...: Walk at the beach. Okay. Denielle?
Denielle Finkel...: I walk my dog.
Johanna Almstea...: Everybody walks, by the way. Everyone who comes on here says the walking is their go-to coping ... It's amazing.
Denielle Finkel...: Yep.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What is one thing that you know for sure right now in this moment, Thyme?
Thyme Sullivan: There will be a day that there's period products right next to the toilet paper everywhere you go away from home.
Denielle Finkel...: This is our legacy. And I'm going to echo this exact same thing. I mean, this is where Thyme and I finish each other sentences. This will be our legacy. That is what we know for our girls and this next generation and for your daughters, it's going to be like wifi. You get pissed when it's not there. This is what's going to happen.
Thyme Sullivan: All of the things you thought were crazy. I was the one that said it when Uber came out. I'm like, "I'm not getting in somebody else's car. That's insane." But Airbnb and Uber and Netflix and wifi. Listen, every business in the country put hand sanitizer out in a week when COVID hit and it didn't put anybody out of business. The fact that people say they can't or won't do it is insane. And we put it everywhere. I just put a dispenser in my daughter's dorm at Northeastern University and her roommates think it's the coolest thing in the whole wide world.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh my God, you're like the star mom. You-
Thyme Sullivan: Everywhere.
Johanna Almstea...: Show up with a dispenser. I love it.
Thyme Sullivan: Everywhere. They think it's so funny. Right next to her signed One Direction poster that is hysterical that she's been bringing with us her-
Denielle Finkel...: That's she's had for 10 years. Yeah.
Thyme Sullivan: That she's had forever. That is not even real that I bought on the street in New York. Don't tell her.
Johanna Almstea...: That is amazing. I love that people are like, "My mom bought a Laura Ashley comforter." She's like, "My mom brought a tampon dispenser and everyone loved it."
Thyme Sullivan: Oh my god. It's hysterical.
Johanna Almstea...: That's amazing. Well, that's an amazing legacy.
Thyme Sullivan: It is going to happen. We can feel it. We can feel the energy behind it. And anybody who hears it, they're like, "Oh, yeah."
Johanna Almstea...: Duh.
Thyme Sullivan: Duh.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. So please tell people where they can find you. Where can they hear about Unicorn? Where can they follow you and learn about news and figure out where do they contact if they want to put one in their business? So please tell the people.
Denielle Finkel...: Well, we are big on LinkedIn because so much of what we do is business to business. So we are on LinkedIn. Unicorn in every stall is us.
Johanna Almstea...: Is the LinkedIn profile.
Denielle Finkel...: But Thyme and I both have very large followings behind our two accounts, so both Denielle Finkelstein or Thyme Sullivan. We are constantly talking about what we're doing, the partnerships that we have, some exciting things and fun things that we're out and about doing. And then we're both on Instagram and Facebook and we are just about launching on TikTok, which is very exciting.
Johanna Almstea...: That is very exciting.
Thyme Sullivan: Our website is where people can go to ... There is a shop button that goes to Amazon. We are on Amazon. And then there's also an inquiry button. If a certain business would like to bring us on. We can connect them to our local distributors. We use all of the major ones across the country, and like we said, we're on Amazon. So everystall.com
Johanna Almstea...: Everystall.com. www.everystall.com is where you can find out more about them and where you can get the product. You two, this has been a blast. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Denielle Finkel...: This was amazing.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story, to spread the very, very important message, and thank you for just hanging out with me today.
Denielle Finkel...: Congratulations on this. Seriously.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you.
Denielle Finkel...: I'm so excited to see you doing this. Really excited.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
They are quite a duo. That was so inspiring and so hilarious, and I love, love, love talking with them. So as always, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you're feeling fired up and inspired by their story, by their tenacity and their passion. Please, if you think someone you know might like this episode, please share it with them. You can text it to them, you can share it on social media. Just share the link. As always, I'm so grateful to all of you who keep tuning in. We are growing this community bit by bit, and it's all thanks to you. So please follow the pod if you're not already. Follow us on social media if you're not already. We're at Eat My Words, the podcast on both TikTok and Instagram. And as always, thank you, thank you, thank you. I will catch you on the next one.
This Eat My Words podcast has been created and directed by me, Joanna Almstead. Our producer is Sophy Drouin, our audio editor is Isabel Robertson, and our brand manager is Mila Bushna.