Eat My Words

Johanna Almstead:
Hello everyone, and welcome to Eat My Words. We are summering the verb. We are eating ice cream and we are slowing down and we are connecting with friends. So we thought we would bring one of our favorite episodes back for you guys. This episode today is Pamela Bell, the magnificent, the creative, the smart, the hilarious, the kind. And I hope that you guys are finding inspiration in your downtime. I hope you're taking some downtime. I hope you're finding connection and creativity. And I just love this episode. I love Pamela so much, and I hope you do too. Bye.

Hello everyone. As you know, if you are a regular listener, I like to plan my menu for my next guest. This is a new friend and someone I don't know very well. And so usually I would go really, really safe and traditional, but I am channeling my mom today. I'm thinking a lot about the nice lovely dinners that my mom would host when I was a kid growing up. They weren't super fancy, but they were so beautiful and so thoughtful and often kind of interesting flavors. So I'm thinking about her a lot today. And so I'm inspired by one of her kind of hippie dippy recipes, a few of her hippie dippy recipes that she used to serve back in the '70s and '80s.

But we're going to start with something a little bit classic just because I'm going to go more, not completely vegetarian, but not a lot of meat in the next part of the meal. So I'm going to start with a little shrimp cocktail. I don't know, I just think it's nice. It's classic, it's yummy. I like to get the fresh horseradish, the actual root from the farmer's market and grate some of that into ketchup to make a really good cocktail sauce. I also was at the farmer's market and there were some lovely carrots and parsnips and some zucchini. So I'm going to do a little crudite with some shrimp cocktail. I'm going to do a take on a classic like French onion dip for the veggies. And then I think because we have French onion dip, we probably should have a few really good or crunchy salty potato chips. I do love a crunchy, salty potato chip. I think with that I'm going to do a little bubbles, maybe like a Cava or a Prosecco or something.

And then for the meal, as I said, I'm going to go totally inspired by cozy fall meals that I remember my mom making. I recently just made this salad actually that I took to a party at a friend's house, and it was a big hit. So this is a super simple salad. It's a spinach salad with bacon and mushrooms, and you just do like a lemon and Dijon mustard vinaigrette. It's really, really good. I guess that doesn't count as a vinaigrette because it doesn't have vinaigrette, a lemon Dijon dressing.

And then I'm going to go a little wacky here for dinner. My mom used to make this, she would make a cheese souffle. So it was this souffle texture, and it would have lovely cheeses in it. And then she would bake it in the oven and it would rise up just like a souffle, poofy. And then we'd have this really lovely crusty top, and she would serve that with a ratatouille on the side, which is cooked veggies. It's like zucchinis and mushrooms and peppers and some herbs in kind of a tomato-y it's almost like a stew kind of. And then she would serve that with a big crusty French baguette and really good butter. And so you would kind of put a little bit of your souffle and your ratatouille on the bread kind of. It was just delicious and cozy and warm, and I don't know, it feels really different and I'm feeling reminiscent for those times.

And I think I would serve a red wine with that, just like a cozy red, maybe a Pinot noir. I think maybe a Pinot noir or a Montepulciano, maybe a little bit more structure, maybe a Montepulciano. Yeah. And then for music, I'm feeling, I've been listening to a lot of Buena Vista Social Club. And I just recently rediscovered Omara Portuondo. Oh my God, she's so good. So I'd have a little bit of her, and some Gilberto Gil and maybe a little Nina Simone. Just kind of cozy, relaxed vibes. My next guest is someone who's work I've admired from afar for a very long time, and I'm inspired by her and the work that she's doing in the world. So I hope that you guys will enjoy getting to know her, and will be inspired by her, and I can't wait to get to talk to her. So let's dig in.

Hello everyone, and welcome to Eat My Words. Today is a super exciting day for me because it feels like a very strangely circuitous kind of full circle moment for me. And I have the great privilege to speak with someone whom I have admired from afar for a very long time. My guest today is an incredible businesswoman, an entrepreneur, an artist, a philanthropist, an activist, a mother and a daughter and a friend. She is one of the four founding partners of the incredible brands Kate Spade and Jack Spade. She is also the founder of Prinkshop, a social enterprise that creates advocacy campaigns that are designed to be worn, and of which I'm a proud owner of three pieces. One I'm wearing today, which I'm super excited about. She's also a fine artist creating stunning collage pieces that explore the subjects of loss, transformation, and renewal. And now I'm currently lusting after a piece from the 12 Women series that I'm now like can't stop thinking about. So thanks for that.

She's a member of the CFDA and along with Kenneth Cole is the co-founder of the Mental Health Coalition, an organization that focuses on reducing the stigma around mental health. She is also the founder of Bowery Arts Project that offers classes to homeless individuals in recovery. In addition, she serves as a Tony voter, which I really need to know more about because how does that get to happen in your life? That's so cool. She's a Disruptor Fellow, a Lang Center Innovation Fellow at Columbia Business School. She also serves on the advisory committee of the American Theatre Wing and is a board member of Abahizi Rwanda, which is a cause and a place very near and dear to me because I was one of the original founding team members of the On Purpose program when I was at Kate Spade. So it's a really long, crazy full circle moment there. She spends her time deeply committed to so many of the causes that are dear to me, and she's a true inspiration. I'm so honored and very, very excited to be here with you today, Pamela Bell, welcome to Eat My Words.

Pamela Bell:
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I love your title. Eat My Words. I'm just like, oh gosh, am I going to be eating my words here?

Johanna Almstead:
I mean maybe, but we can always edit it out if you do. We hope we get a little-

Pamela Bell:
Thank you.

Johanna Almstead:
... a little racy.

Pamela Bell:
That's really a nice introduction. Some of the things that the Bowery Arts Project actually ended during COVID, but it was an amazing experience, and I think it carries on in other ways.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with me. I know you have so many things going on, so I really appreciate you taking the time. I always like to tell our listeners how we know each other, and we are new friends, new acquaintances, but I've known of you for a very long time. You were one of the four founders of Kate Spade New York, along with Elyce Arons, Kate Spade, herself, and Andy Spade. And the four of you built an remarkable brand with an incredible DNA that was wildly successful. And after the four of you sold the business, I was part of the team that came in after that. And we had this great privilege of shepherding this brand that you guys had created into this next realm of what it was going to be. And you were kind of always part of this beautiful and mysterious lore of the founders and the brand and the history that we were so lucky to inherit.

So eventually, my dear friend Trish, who she was sort of one of the only team members that had worked with you guys and stayed on for quite a long time into the new chapter, she was like, "You need to meet her." And I was like, "Oh my God, please, please. I love all hearing about all of the stories." So I was very, very grateful when she connected us. I loved, loved my job there, and the only sad part about it was that I never got the opportunity to work with all of you founders. And that was always sort of a little bit of a tug in my heart, like, God, I wish I had known what it was like when they were building this. So that's sort of the long story of that.

You went on to build Prinkshop, which I'm a huge fan of, which marries great design with advocacy and activism, which are also two things that are very near and dear to my heart. So I was really, really, really excited to meet you and to have this time together so that we can share our stories. I would love to ask, I sort of start with this question most of the time because it's very interesting to me, where people start is, where would you say your journey began?

Pamela Bell:
Well, I was born in Ohio outside of Cincinnati, a very small town called Indian Hill.

Johanna Almstead:
My family lives in Loveland.

Pamela Bell:
Oh my gosh. So that's right next door. My father worked at Procter & Gamble. And Midwest, a lot of freedom, I mean, compared to how my kids grew up, I just had independent bike rides at age seven and a lot of running through the woods in the backyards of friends. And it was sort of an idyllic physical atmosphere, I would say. It was also the '70s, and I was born in the '60s, but I became a kid in the '70s, and it was very singularly, I did not grow up in a diverse environment. And I always was curious about outside the walls of Indian Hill, although we grew up very modestly. And I would say that was sort of my beginning journey. I was also a competitive swimmer. So I spent a lot of time alone swimming, but also being part of a team. And I think that that built a lot of the skills that I have. I always played sports. I was a huge, I played varsity lacrosse, field hockey, and I was on the swim team all through high school.

Johanna Almstead:
Wow. And would you say those were formative things that made you into who you are?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I didn't know it at the time, but I always tell my kids and things, I'm like, where else can you wear a skirt and carry a stick? In lacrosse and field hockey. And I didn't even realize the sort of patriarchal oppression that I was living under, because I always had this stick that I could just run on the field with. And I had a lot of fun being part of a team.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. It's so funny. Both my daughters actually play field hockey and lacrosse. And I was at my older daughter's game yesterday, and at one point I just looked out and she's quite gangly, she's 12, and she's really tall and really skinny, and she's got these long arms. And she had this she wears now this protective glove that's has no fingers, it's got a padding here, and it's black. She leaps across and she's got her stick, and she just jabs the ball. And I was like, she looks so powerful.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, it's amazing. I think that a lot of the, I just recommend team sports at all ages for anyone, I think it's where you really learn how to interact.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. And how to be in your body and be on a team and be in your power. Okay. So you were on these teams in Indian Hill, and what happened next? Where'd you go?

Pamela Bell:
We moved to New Jersey when I was in high school, or the beginning of high school, maybe eighth grade. And that was my parents got divorced, and it was a very different vibe. I sort of call it the ice storm. It was just not a good, it was not a good experience. And out of that, I think, I learned how to cope with a lot of adversity. And then I went to the University of Colorado. I started a business there. I had always had to earn my own spending money. And that was outside of a basic couple of pairs of pants and shirts, anything with color, I had to pay for. So I started working at a really young age actually, and babysitting and selling pussy willows on the corner with honeysuckle. Just like anything I could do to make some money. And I loved the brand Esprit, and found one location somewhere in Pennsylvania that I convinced my mother to take me to. And I mail ordered a few things also, which was-

Johanna Almstead:
Was there a catalog? I don't remember an Esprit catalog.

Pamela Bell:
They had a large format, beautiful, it must've been like 17 by 11. And I had purple high tops, lavender high tops. And one of the sweatshirts that actually said Esprit on it was white with red. And I felt very cool wearing these.

Johanna Almstead:
You were so cool. I mean, Esprit was so cool and so aspirational for me.

Pamela Bell:
It was so... But I remember getting the high top. I remember the smell, and then I remember wearing them and people were like, "Whoa, what are those?" And I loved it. Yeah, little like tomboy chic I think was... I was never frilly girly dresses and blouses and things like that. I always liked the kind of more boyish look.

Johanna Almstead:
Me too. So you went to University of Colorado, and then what was this first business that you started?

Pamela Bell:
I had a hair accessory company. A friend of mine and I went, we studied abroad and we were in Florence, and we saw these incredibly beautiful wooden hair accessories. And basically we sort of modified them into our own version and came back and sold them. And I figured out the production. They were wooden, and they were trompe-l'oeil, so they looked like they were tied bows, but they were actually just flat. And I learned how to airbrush. And we made a model, and we just spray painted them. We found a manufacturer. I learned how to put the glue on so the clips wouldn't come off. I mean, it was pretty elaborate. And we sold them in the sororities.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh my gosh.

Pamela Bell:
And there was a little bit of spray paint on the carpet in the house that we rented from making them inside. I'm sure I got a little high from-

Johanna Almstead:
From the fumes.

Pamela Bell:
... the glue also. Yes. And we came to New York together. She was from California. We came to New York together. And we were sitting in a diner, and someone came up to us and said, "Where did you get those?" And we were like, "This is our company." And they placed a really big order.

Johanna Almstead:
No way.

Pamela Bell:
It was like $3,800. We were just-

Johanna Almstead:
Oh my goodness.

Pamela Bell:
This was like 1988 or '89. And I forgot the name of the store. It doesn't exist anymore. But it was kind of cool. And then Bendel's ordered them also, which was really a big deal.

Johanna Almstead:
Wait, how did Bendel's find out about them?

Pamela Bell:
I guess they saw them too in the store. People contacted us. We didn't have sales reps. We didn't have any of that. Or maybe we contacted them. Or we might've just walked in with them-

Johanna Almstead:
And been like hi. Back in the day, you could do that.

Pamela Bell:
I did have a little tricked out briefcase that I made with FoamCore, and you'd open it up and you'd just have all the accessories. And one day I went, I tell my kids this because the store still exists, but on Sixth Avenue, there's a store called The Pleasure Chest. And I didn't know. And I walked in and I was like, "I have some accessories." And the guy looked at me and he was like, "Well, okay, let's see your..." He was a little bit flirty kind of, and I'm just like, oh. And then I put it on the case, which was glass. And then I looked down, and I was like, oh my gosh. The Pleasure Chest.

Johanna Almstead:
So for those listening who do not know what The Pleasure Chest is, it's a sex shop.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, totally.

Johanna Almstead:
That sells intimate toys and gadgets and accessories.

Pamela Bell:
It was so funny. And as I was opening it up, I'm thinking, what is he thinking these are, because they're wooden bows with these clips. And he's like, "Huh." And I was like, "Oh, I don't think it's the right store."

Johanna Almstead:
Oh my God. Oh my God. That's like out of a movie.

Pamela Bell:
I know. It was really funny. And it still exists. I crack up, I giggle every time I walk by, but I had no idea. I mean, we have a couple of those stories also later. But then my partner, Kelly, who has gone on to be a very successful entrepreneur in Orange County, she just didn't like New York. She's from Newport. She didn't love it. And one day she's like, "Dude, I'm leaving." And I just was like, ah. So I kept doing it.

And I met some people down on Varick Street that had, it was a company called The Plastic Jewel Company, and I was looking for manufacturing, and I ended up becoming friendly with the man who ran it. And he gave me a free office on 75 Varick, which is such a cool building with these huge windows. And in exchange, I designed things for them. And they made very low-end, inexpensive. They sold to Walmart and Kmart. And it was plastic jewelry. And I designed a few items for them. And then I negotiated with him not only to get the free rent, but to get a 10% commission.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh my God. I love it.

Pamela Bell:
They were really, I mean, it was kind of a dark place. There were definitely deals going on that I didn't know about under the table. But we had a couple of really successful lines. And so much so that they couldn't even handle the production. So I got a bunch of my friends that were actors or musicians or out of work, and I got them to help me do the production. There were stickers that would stick onto the accessories. So I would drop off bags of these blanks and the stickers. And friends of mine would get 20 cents a piece, and then I'd go and pick them up. And so then I would make money on that also. That was really great and super fun. And I think I learned production from that.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. And did you have an idea in your head when you were in Colorado in college or whatever, were you I have a picture in my head of what I want my life to be, I know what-

Pamela Bell:
Definitely not.

Johanna Almstead:
... having at all means. You were just flying by the seat of your pants.

Pamela Bell:
I had no idea. And my parents were really pressuring me into learning how to type so I could become a secretary.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. Big dreams for you.

Pamela Bell:
Big dreams. Big dreams. I think because I was involved in sports, they thought maybe you should be a soccer coach. And I had been a soccer coach when I was younger. I just didn't really even think fashion would be something that... I didn't even feel the hair accessories were fashion. I just felt like they were accessories to augment your personal style. I thought fashion was clothing.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. That makes sense. And you clearly have a very entrepreneurial side, a very savvy business side, but also a very creative side. How does that live in you now? Is it yin and yang, or is one stronger than the other?

Pamela Bell:
That's an interesting question because I think that people don't understand when people have both. You're either a creative or you're the business.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. It's rare.

Pamela Bell:
They're like, wait, I didn't know you could do business. I don't know-

Johanna Almstead:
An artsy person who does business.

Pamela Bell:
Right, exactly. People really want to put you into a box. I mean, even today they're like, "Oh, wow, you're kind of a hippie." And I'm like, "I'm not a hippie." I have a practice of transcendental meditation, and half the people I meet are like, whoa, woo woo. And then others are just like, it's normal for them. But yeah, I have to do both. I think that what it does is when you are creative, if you're doing it for commercial purposes, you have a checkpoint that's kind of silent in your brain, is this going to sell or will this work? And so to me, it's there.

Johanna Almstead:
It's always been there.

Pamela Bell:
It's always both there.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. So I feel like this is a good segue to talk about your actual art that you're doing now. Because I would love to know because it's so beautiful. And number one, I want to understand what made you start that practice, but also when you're creating that art, are you thinking about it in a commercial way?

Pamela Bell:
Yes.

Johanna Almstead:
Or is that truly an artistic, just like gush-

Pamela Bell:
I would say both. And I started, I raised my children in a townhouse in the East Village, and sort of needed to downsize. So we sold it. And there was 100 rolls of wallpaper in the basement that were all either, some of them were left over from my working in the house because I had a lot of wallpaper from Second Hand Rose. I used a lot of vintage wallpaper. And then the previous owner had rolls there too, and I just couldn't throw them away.

And I had a woman actually came to do a photo shoot for a Prinkshop, and she was like, "Let's put these shapes in the back." And she had created this idea for these shapes. And then it was hard to figure out how to get the shape. So I sort of took it over and started silk screening. And then I started making shapes and silk screening new shapes. And I just used all the wallpaper and started making art. It was just something that happened. I've been a collage artist my entire life. Every birthday, my kids have elaborate collage. I've saved pieces of paper, I love paper, from all travels or ticket stubs. Anything that's flat that can be glued I hang on to. And so, I mean, if you looked around here, you'd be like, whoa. Yeah, you do. People come into the studio and they're like, "Don't light a match in here because..."

Johanna Almstead:
So many paper pieces.

Pamela Bell:
So many papers. And I started doing them whole at first. And then during COVID, I had moved out to Water Mill, which is where I am now. And I started making art, and I started framing it and giving it away. And everything was remote. So we were doing Prinkshop remote. We were doing the Mental Health Coalition remote, and I had a lot of free time. My kids were on Zoom college, and so I just stayed a lot in the studio and started making. And a friend came over and she said, "Oh, you have to show these." And I was like, "I don't even know how to do that." And then I got a show in a small gallery in Southampton, and a lot of people came, and it was a big deal for me to go out on my own completely.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, I can imagine.

Pamela Bell:
I really liked it. And I sold a lot of the pieces, not all of them, but I don't know. I just kept going. Other people, someone else started buying them. I put them in a really beautiful store in Bridgehampton, sold. I met an art dealer who now takes them to shows. I have a website. I just dropped a few pieces off to an art dealer in East Hampton.

Johanna Almstead:
Is that wild, to be out in the world as a fine artist?

Pamela Bell:
It's wild. And I'm pretty hard on myself, but I love it. I can't stop. And so the torn and the 12 Women, I realize that I've been healing inside of this studio from a lot of stuff, which we won't go into.

Johanna Almstead:
You can if you want. It's a safe space here.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, okay. Well-

Johanna Almstead:
You totally can.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I think I had some issues that I hadn't resolved around just from being a woman, childhood, negative self-thoughts and troubled relationships. And my sister who passed away a year ago-

Johanna Almstead:
Oh, I'm sorry.

Pamela Bell:
... lived with... Yeah, it was hard. I was making a lot of art while talking with her, and I spent a lot of time with her. And she lived with bipolar disorder. And it was a very volatile, loving, amazing, difficult relationship. And growing up-

Johanna Almstead:
I can imagine.

Pamela Bell:
... with that, your nervous system is different, I think, from people who don't grow up with that.

Johanna Almstead:
I can imagine. Yes.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. And I realized that I'd also kind of laid that on my kids a little too. So it's been a process here. And I started tearing the pieces that were whole. I mix all the colors myself also, which was very reminiscent of working at Kate Spade and getting the right color for certain things. And so that was cathartic. It really is sort of art therapy. And then I started-

Johanna Almstead:
But you didn't enter it in with necessarily that intention?

Pamela Bell:
No, there was no intention, but it was definitely the outcome.

Johanna Almstead:
And a need.

Pamela Bell:
A need. Yeah. I couldn't stop, and I can't stop. I think about something, I'm like, I got to get that color, or that pink or that blue. Or yeah, I feel a little something is channeling through me. It's a pretty deep desire. And I mean, I can turn it off. But I need to be in the studio. It's like I miss it. It's like an athlete who needs to run.

But I started tearing the pieces and then putting them back. And I realized, when someone wrote something about the work, I was part of a group show at the Quogue Library this spring, which is a lovely place. And they're very serious. And someone wrote something about it. And I was like, oh, I'm tearing everything apart. And I tear it all by hand. And then I put it back together. And I realized it was like, this is a time in my life. My kids are adults now. They all have jobs. And little pieces of me just, I allowed myself to be sort of torn apart over these years, and now it's a time to put it all back together. So I think that's really what it's about. It's a different whole piece that has all the pieces that you lost. So putting them back, and who knows, maybe they won't be as abstract down the road, but right now they're just pieces put back on a page.

Johanna Almstead:
That makes me really emotional. That's so beautiful. I think what a intense time for you, I imagine, when your kids are going off and being adults, and then finding yourself again through this process is really incredible.

Pamela Bell:
It's pretty intense. And I think that, probably more so for me, because I think I had a lot of codependency tendencies. And so I think that I put a little too much of my energy into worrying, enabling, encouraging.

Johanna Almstead:
As a mother, you're saying?

Pamela Bell:
As a mother. Yeah. As a mother. I mean, I think too much in some ways and not enough in others. So I mean, we're all just-

Johanna Almstead:
I mean, find me one who did it right. I don't know.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, exactly. I know, I know. But there are some big amends that I'm trying to make and be on my own now. So it's an interesting... I'm glad I have the studio. I feel really grateful, and access to the paints and glue, and it's really nice.

Johanna Almstead:
So when you and I spoke the other day, we talked a little bit about the crazy journey of motherhood when you became a mother, which sounds like a very different time than it is now. You were running this business that you were building, you were barely taking a minute to give birth. People were calling you in the labor and delivery room-

Pamela Bell:
It is true.

Johanna Almstead:
... to find out about bolts of fabric and purchase orders. I mean, do you think any of that codependency over parenting stuff was a reaction to that? The fact that the way that you started out as a parent was so-

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I think I was very... I also had my eldest daughter, Elenore, I had a high risk pregnancy, and I was on bed rest for a couple of months. And although that was actually probably very good because I was pretty calm while on bed rest, and I knew I needed to be calm. It was a calming time. But after she was born, I took 10 weeks, which I really needed. And then, I mean, the pumping machines for breastfeeding were like, it was like, you can't imagine what it looked like. Compared to now I have babysitters now who are adults and are just having their babies. And I'm like, wow, that's amazing. I had to carry this giant rental piece of equipment. It was like a generator. And it was a little bit chaotic. My kids will say, my two older daughters will say, it was chaos. And we had babysitters, and I mean, we had a lot of fun also, it was just 80 miles an hour.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. I was reading the book of one of your co-founders, Elyce Arons, and she said something about when she had her own child like being afraid to step off the carousel of all the excitement of the momentum of the work and the brand and you guys as a team. And just being so afraid, even though she was nine million months pregnant and needed to have a child, just being afraid that it would all go away if you just took a beat and stopped.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. She was probably more conscious of how she was feeling. I didn't want to miss anything. So I think that was double anxiety. I didn't want to miss the kids. I did a lot of running around. I got to be here. And I took them to school every single day, and it was a big thing.

Johanna Almstead:
I know. I have that-

Pamela Bell:
And I love that.

Johanna Almstead:
... same thing.

Pamela Bell:
But I didn't pick them up until we sold the company. And so yeah, it's busy anyway, even if you're not running a company, to have three children. You're insanely busy, even if you're not working. I have so much respect for moms and stay at home moms. I mean, that is a full-time job.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, it's really crazy. And I think it's funny, at least you just reminded me of that, the drop off thing. I would make deals with myself. If I dropped them off every day, I knew that I had checked something off in the motherhood box. I had done it, and if I didn't pick up, it was okay because I dropped them off. You make these weird negotiations with yourself inside to make it feel okay, all of it okay.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. And I think-

Johanna Almstead:
It never kind of feels okay, because you're so busy, and you're always needed somewhere else, and you can never give your whole self to all of them, everything.

Pamela Bell:
Which is probably a good thing. I mean, I think that it's a pressure that we put on ourselves. I'm reading this incredible book right now. It's actually a workbook, but I'm listening to it. And it's Elise Loehnen, and it's called From Goodness to Wholeness, or something like that. And it's really about all of the stories that women tell themselves and ways to workshop through those stories and become more whole instead of good.

Johanna Almstead:
Ooh, I like this.

Pamela Bell:
It's real-

Johanna Almstead:
Will you send it to me-

Pamela Bell:
I will.

Johanna Almstead:
... when we get off?

Pamela Bell:
I will.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. We'll put it in the show notes for everybody who's listening.

Pamela Bell:
It's two woman. It's Elise and Courtney, and I mean, I just started it, so I'm not super familiar with them, but really good. I will send it to you.

Johanna Almstead:
So I'd love to talk a little bit about Prinkshop because I'm a fan. I love what you guys are doing there.

Pamela Bell:
Thanks.

Johanna Almstead:
And I would love to understand, so you had sold Kate Spade and you didn't need to work. You weren't working for a little while. What was the impetus behind Prinkshop? Why did you have to do it?

Pamela Bell:
Well, okay, so we had, I think it was a week or something before I was leaving Kate Spade, Andy Spade came to me and he said, "I negotiated you a non-compete." And I remember looking at him like do I want that? I just didn't know. I didn't know if I wanted to... I hadn't wanted sell. And I hung in there to try to see if there was a way that we could in some capacity stay.

Johanna Almstead:
Stay. Got it. Okay.

Pamela Bell:
And there were opportunities, but there were four of us. And it was like if it wasn't going to be the four of us, it wasn't going to be one or two or three. And we honored that. I mean, it was an unspoken thing. Nobody really asked anyone else to be held back. And also, I stayed through some of the transition with the corporate groups, and it was really a completely different life.

Johanna Almstead:
I can imagine. It must've been whiplash.

Pamela Bell:
It was like whiplash. And they weren't particularly nice to us. It was kind of move over, we're coming in.

Johanna Almstead:
So wild.

Pamela Bell:
It was pretty wild. I mean, it was-

Johanna Almstead:
Was that painful? Was that hard?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, it was sort of demoralizing, I think, for me personally. But I'm a fighter, so I was fighting. And it was a little dismissive, and we were sort of like the kooky founders.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. Like, oh, that's so cute. You guys just made this cute little brand. Thanks. We're going to take it and turn it into a billion dollar business.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, exactly. And I did have a little bit of a semi-altercation with the then CEO of Liz Claiborne. I think he wanted to-

Johanna Almstead:
With Bill, Bill McComb.

Pamela Bell:
Yes. I mean, he's a perfectly nice guy, but I said something and he didn't like it. There was standing up at the table. And I was just-

Johanna Almstead:
It physically acted out.

Pamela Bell:
... it was just pumped. And I was saying the truth, by the way. So we just could never imagine making for the outlets. And that was a big thing. We were honest. So we didn't want to fool our customers by making products that are specifically for the outlets.

Johanna Almstead:
I think we should explain that to some of the listeners because not everyone is in the business. So in the outlet world, it used to be when first factory outlets started, it was that you were using the pieces that were somehow a little bit damaged or the wrong color thread, or there's something had happened during the production process.

Pamela Bell:
Or extra from retail stores.

Johanna Almstead:
Or extra from retail stores that you had to buy back, or samples or whatever that you would use. And that's what would get sold to the outlet stores. Somewhere in the 2000s, I don't know exactly when that changed, but basically companies began making product that was cheaper and of lesser quality specifically for their outlets. And every brand does it, I'm pretty sure. I don't know. I remember when I found that out, I was like, what do you mean? Are you serious? Because everyone thinks they're going and they're getting a designer bag for less money. And what they're getting is a bag with a designer label on it of a lesser quality and cheaper material.

Pamela Bell:
Exactly.

Johanna Almstead:
Every once in a while, there will be still pieces that were factory pieces. But for the most part, people, now companies make products specifically for their outlet. So that is what Pamela is referring to when we are talking about that. Okay, so you didn't want to do that. You couldn't imagine doing that.

Pamela Bell:
I couldn't imagine doing it.

Johanna Almstead:
That just seems crazy.

Pamela Bell:
And they actually said, "Oh, we'll never do that." And then all of a sudden, one of our production women came to me, and she's like, "Look at what... This is being put into works." And I was just like, "What?" Anyway, it was a whole bunch of weird things that happened. Everyone had a Blackberry there also, and we just didn't understand. We'd be sitting in a room having a meeting, and then all of a sudden everybody would pick up their Blackberries and go, "We got to go." We're like, where are you going? Who's more important than this meeting that we're having? We didn't understand the culture.

Johanna Almstead:
It was a true culture clash. Really.

Pamela Bell:
We had a lot of laughs about it, but Elyce actually knew what it was going to be like because she had worked for a large corporation before. Katie, Andy, and I were just agape. Like how is this okay? It was like the manners went out the window. But anyway, so I ended up taking the non-compete, which meant they paid a salary, and I couldn't work for three or four years. And-

Johanna Almstead:
You couldn't work at all-

Pamela Bell:
Nothing.

Johanna Almstead:
... or only... Nothing.

Pamela Bell:
Nothing.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay.

Pamela Bell:
So I cooked up Prinkshop. Earlier in the company, Katie had been invited to a luncheon for Women for Women, and she couldn't go. And she said, "Do you want to go?" And I was like, "Oh, great." And my life changed that day. I just was hearing these stories of, and I didn't really know, I just didn't-

Johanna Almstead:
So yeah, let's explain what Women for Women is. So Women for Women International is an organization that goes into conflict zones. And their belief is that by providing education, skills, resources, autonomy to the women in the community that is under duress because of conflict, that the community will thrive more quickly and more abundantly when the women are doing well in that community.

So their whole mission is to go into these places and to lift up the women. To empower them with resources, empower them with facts, with rights education, with actual physical resources. And that when the women do better, the community does better. So this is the organization that you went to the luncheon that day, and your eyes were blown open because you had no idea that this kind of thing was going on in the world?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I mean, I knew it, I mean a little bit, but not to the extent. And then I saw an opportunity. I was like, we have a business. We can buy products. We'll design products with one of these groups of women, and then sell them in our retail store. They'll win because they'll be paid, and it'll be earning their wages instead of just some donation. And then we'll have this incredible supplier that we'll feel good about.

And so, I mean, this was, I don't remember what year it was, 2002 maybe, 2003. And we found a group of knitters in Bosnia Herzegovina and had been war-torn. I saw a short video about them. And I did it with the creative department because the design department was sort of under merchandising. And the creative department at Kate Spade was always pretty untouchable. So some of the designers who were just incredible started helping me conceive what the design would be for a knit hat that had the first one had sunglasses on top of it.

Johanna Almstead:
I remember that one.

Pamela Bell:
And I started doing the development. No one really got it. And some of the finance people, one of which was my father, would walk by my office and say, "How's your do-good project going?" And then, I don't know, somebody, we had a president at the time, they didn't like it that it was taking so long for the development. I think I paid $1,800 of my own money for the second round of samples because no one understood-

Johanna Almstead:
You couldn't get it approved by finance.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. They were just like, "What are you doing? Go to China and get..." So there was a lot of internal pressure for that. But it turned out we got the hats and we paid them. They knit in groups. We designed around their capabilities. And it took a little time because the soft lining on the inside, and they needed to learn a little bit more. But they were phenomenal. We bought them small at the beginning, and we sold them. And we had a profit, they had a profit. It all worked. And that was one of the best things that I did there that I felt really good about. I mean, we had lots of manufacturers. We had lots in New York and Italians that we just loved, but there wasn't a lot of joy when we started getting huge volume where you would just place the order and then a ship would come in. And I liked being more hands-on.

Johanna Almstead:
And that was the beginning of what is now a crazy, amazing, huge initiative with its own factory in Rwanda. And I think there were some of us on the team that came later who were equally, I think, as inspired and motivated. And also people were like, what are you guys doing, and thought we were crazy, who sort of took that seed that you guys had done and that amazing framework that you guys had built, and then turned it into what is now called the On Purpose Initiative, which is their whole philanthropic arm. But yeah, it turned into a factory in Rwanda, and we produced in Afghanistan, and we did all kinds of crazy things. It's really cool.

Pamela Bell:
I know. It's amazing. I'm really grateful that that stayed. That's a real-

Johanna Almstead:
Do you know Sydney? Have you met Sydney Price?

Pamela Bell:
No. No.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. So we need-

Pamela Bell:
I know Taryn.

Johanna Almstead:
So Sydney hired Taryn. You need to know Sydney because Sydney is really, she was on this podcast actually, she is really the reason, she really picked up the torch where you left off.

Pamela Bell:
Oh, wow.

Johanna Almstead:
I mean, there were a couple of us who were equally excited, but she really took it on and made it, basically convinced our CEO to make it her job, and hired the team and did the whole thing. And so really, you guys should meet because she's-

Pamela Bell:
I'd love to. I would love to.

Johanna Almstead:
... she's extraordinary. And I think it'd be really cool for you to see. Because she's really, I have to say, the reason that it kept going in the way that it kept going. Yeah.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. That's really cool. I mean, what a great organization. And Prinkshop was sort of a little bit born out of that. We produce everything in a factory that was created to employ adults with autism.

Johanna Almstead:
So cool.

Pamela Bell:
And I think it's between 73 and 78% of the employees are adults living with autism. And I had read something that said 98% of adults with autism are either underemployed or unemployed in the United States. And it is the happiest place you can ever go. They're just so kind.

Johanna Almstead:
And it's in New York, right?

Pamela Bell:
There's one in Port Washington and one in Westchester. And it's called Spectrum Designs. If anybody's listening. They do big volume. So they're always looking. I've introduced them to so many designers and manufacturers because they can do a lot. And their prices are competitive. The quality is extraordinary. They made this.

Johanna Almstead:
And is that a sweater or is that a sweatshirt?

Pamela Bell:
It's a sweatshirt.

Johanna Almstead:
It's a sweatshirt. So they do mostly knit t-shirts and [inaudible 00:44:16].

Pamela Bell:
T-shirts, sweatshirts, hats, totes. They do embroidery and silk screening. They also have a laundromat thing they do. And then they have a baked goods division. They're really incredible.

Johanna Almstead:
That's extraordinary. And how did you find them?

Pamela Bell:
I found them with, I went to a birthday party of a friend of mine. And I met a woman who knew the woman who founded Spectrum. And somehow my friend Melissa, who's a great connector, said, "Oh, you're looking for a factory, and this woman knows the factory." And I reached out to them. And at first I used to have a flip tag on all my products where, when you're walking down the street, if you do this, it would have information. And when I first sent it to them... And you have to print it upside down, inside out.

Johanna Almstead:
Inside out. Right.

Pamela Bell:
And they were like, "I don't think we can do this." So then I went to a factory called Works in Progress, which is in the East Village. They're also not-for-profit, and they help at-risk youth. And they could do the flip tag. So I started with them. And then Spectrum, when the volume got higher, I was like, what do you say? And we started doing it and we removed the flip tag. It was like an extra cost too, but who knew? I mean, I just didn't know that, 1973, I was walking up the steps, and I was like, what can I do for women's rights? What would be the idea? And then I just thought 1973. And I called Jemme Aldridge, who is a designer that I met at Parsons, and then she worked at Kate Spade. And she sent me five or six iterations. We changed it a little bit. And then that was it.

Johanna Almstead:
And that was the first product you launched with?

Pamela Bell:
I would say it was the first one that I actually sold. I had a couple of other ones that were not super successful. But 1973 was the first one that actually people started calling about.

Johanna Almstead:
And that was how many years ago? When did you start?

Pamela Bell:
It was like 13 years ago? It was... Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
It's still kicking, right? I mean, I feel like it's now more than ever. We need it.

Pamela Bell:
It's still kicking now more than ever. And it's funny, because some people are like, "How did you know that Roe was going to get turned over?" And I was like, "Well, actually, I'd been working on this issue for 30 years. And everyone that's involved always thought that this was going to happen."

And it's good. It's become a little bit of a, I would say, a symbol in a way. And the idea of Prinkshop really was to actually, my daughter came home one day from Madewell with a shirt that said Saint-Tropez, a t-shirt. I rarely gave them full rein or a credit card or anything, but I had given her a credit card. I was like, "Go get a couple of things." It was a big deal. And she came home and I was like, "What? We've never been to Saint-Tropez. What? And we're not going to Saint-Tropez." I had a visceral reaction.

Johanna Almstead:
That's so funny. I have the same one. I'm like, you're not allowed to wear a shirt from some place you've never gone.

Pamela Bell:
Right. And I was like, "Elenore. Wow." But she just liked it because it was pretty. Nothing bad for her. And that's where I got the idea. I was like, oh, where's something that you like that means something.

Johanna Almstead:
That matters.

Pamela Bell:
It matters. And that's really where the idea came from, the Saint Tropez t-shirt, which was quite cute.

Johanna Almstead:
But not [inaudible 00:47:54].

Pamela Bell:
I was like, I'll make you some shirts. And then during COVID, we had a big flux. And I licensed, I was selling to a group called Social Goods, and they were just buying wholesale. And I mean, honestly, I really kind of couldn't keep up with it. And we had a little bit of, it was a very difficult time. My son was in college and he was home. My daughter was just starting her career and work. And I was like, oh, okay, this time I'm not going to chase the business. I'm going to kind of be here solid for the kids. And so I licensed to shop Social Goods, which we still have today. And they really, really did an amazing job. I also made a license with Nikki Kuehl at Kuehl, which is really nice, the striped shirts. And then I have one with Moi Moi, the bracelets that are made in Africa, which is really also quite amazing. So I licensed also. And we have our own site. I've done a lot of collaborative-

Johanna Almstead:
So they took over production of those categories.

Pamela Bell:
They did during COVID. And now we're doing it both side by side, which is great. We have different customers, I think. But they're a sister team, amazing. Same mission, really great. And then we did a lot of collaborations. I did a running shoe for Saucony a couple years ago, which was great. Non-partisan, women run, She Should Run is the organization that it benefited. We always pick an organization or the organization calls us, or we have an issue that we think needs attention, and then we find the organization that we think is doing the best job at helping, eradicating, aiding in the issue. And lots of collaborations too.

Johanna Almstead:
So clearly advocacy and activism are deeply important to you. Do you have advice for people who would like to get involved, but probably can't start their own business making t-shirts? Do you have advice for people to figure out, number one, what their causes are, and number two, how to get involved? Because I think that that seems really overwhelming for a lot of people.

Pamela Bell:
Well, fortunately, we have what we all used to call the worldwide web.

Johanna Almstead:
The information super highway.

Pamela Bell:
The information super highway. I think for anything that has to do with women's rights, and specifically the right to choose and abortion rights, Jessica Valenti is just this incredible force. On Substack, I think she has any resource you could possibly imagine. She gets right down to the core of it. So I think following her and following her every day, she sort of translates all of the news.

Johanna Almstead:
It's almost like live updates on what's going on-

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, she's great.

Johanna Almstead:
... in that particular cause. She's amazing.

Pamela Bell:
She's great.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, she's amazing.

Pamela Bell:
I mean, I think there are no lack of causes. I think people should ask themselves, what do they care about and what makes sense to them? And then do some research. I mean, there's so many organizations that it's an endless well of places that you can go and help. And I also really believe in volunteering in person. I'm actually looking for something out here now that I want to do/ but there's an app called Go Deed also.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh, I don't know that one.

Pamela Bell:
It's an interesting app. You go on and you can sign up for volunteer opportunities.

Johanna Almstead:
Cool. Go Deed.

Pamela Bell:
Go Deed. When we did the Bowery Arts Project, we sort of synced up with them, and we used to get one or two volunteers every day that would come from Go Deed.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh, that's super cool. Okay, everyone check that out. So you've had a pretty extraordinary life with lots of achievements. What are you most proud of?

Pamela Bell:
My kids, I would say. They're just so much more emotionally intelligent than I was at their age. And they're kind, just they're very sweet and kind people. I think that I'm really happy that they are who they are. And I don't really take credit for that as an accomplishment actually. But I would say it's the thing that brings me the most joy is-

Johanna Almstead:
You're still allowed to be proud of it.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I hope they're proud of themselves. And they are who they are. I do think that it's just like 50-50 nature nurture. I've experienced it firsthand watching. Yeah, I would say that that's it. And I think now it's about a more balanced and sort of spiritual. I'm glad I don't work the way that I used to work. Workaholism is just as bad as the other isms. And I think that balance now is a nice next chapter.

Johanna Almstead:
Next chapter. What nourishes you now? What do you do to nourish yourself?

Pamela Bell:
I walk in nature. Try to connect more deeply with people. Like friends really nourish me. I have a couple of really good friends that I can share almost anything with, which is really nice.

Johanna Almstead:
And do you think about now, what are the sacrifices you made to get to where you are? Because I'm sure there's been a lot.

Pamela Bell:
I think I kind of sacrificed my own well-being for a long time.

Johanna Almstead:
In the workaholism.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I think so. And probably wasn't the easiest person to be around for a while. So I think sacrificing some relationships, I would say. That's real.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I like to talk about on this podcast is sacrifices, because none of it comes easily. And it doesn't matter how much you've achieved or how interesting you are, all those things, none of it comes without sacrifice. So I always think it's interesting to think about that now.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I do, I think when I was much younger, I was running, not really realizing what the race I was in and where the finish line was. And it was about building. I was just doing what I thought I was supposed to do. And then when I hopped off that hamster wheel, really, it was like, oh, I don't need a bigger house. I don't need fancy car.

Johanna Almstead:
Did you think you needed those when you were on the hamster wheel?

Pamela Bell:
I think so.

Johanna Almstead:
Is that what was driving you?

Pamela Bell:
I think I was a little acquisitive. Yeah. I think it was about building more.

Johanna Almstead:
And acquiring more, like things?

Pamela Bell:
And acquiring more. Yeah, bigger house, bigger this, bigger... I don't know why I thought that was important. And it wasn't it. And it wasn't. I think that, I mean, my kids and I got lost in our house together. The happiest people I know have the smallest houses.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, it's true.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I think it's good as a young person, just ask yourself, check in. Go what am I doing? And step off. Meditation really helps with that.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. I remember a moment where I like, I was at Kate Spade for seven years, and had had big jobs before that and after that. And I remember it was a good 10 or 12 year sprint where I felt like I was out of breath, actually physically out of breath all the time. And it wasn't until I stopped where I was like, oh, I'm not... getting through my day all the time. It was a long time of just running and never knowing. Again, not knowing where the finish line was, not even knowing where the biomarkers were. Just going. And physically, I can feel it right now as I'm talking about it, that feeling in your stomach, you're like, I can't catch my breath.

Pamela Bell:
Right. And you don't know it. And if somebody tells you you're doing that at the time, you're like, no, I'm not.

Johanna Almstead:
You're fine. You're fine. What do you mean?

Pamela Bell:
Totally.

Johanna Almstead:
They're like, okay, yeah, you're fine.

Pamela Bell:
Oh my God. It was almost like I was deaf. I couldn't, I mean, I-

Johanna Almstead:
Does not enter. Does not enter the brain.

Pamela Bell:
No, it couldn't enter. And there were some things that I do regret, but I'm a different person than I was then.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. Well, I was saying that to actually, Deborah Lloyd, who was the creative officer who took over.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. Which is so funny. I saw that.

Johanna Almstead:
She was saying, "I wish when I was younger, I had stopped and smelled the roses and taken time." And I was like, "Yeah, but do you think if someone told you that back then, would you have listened?" And she's like, "No, absolutely not." It just is what it is. You're not going to hear it until you're ready to hear it.

Pamela Bell:
Well, fortunately, I think for the next generation, I don't think they struggle as much with it. I think that-

Johanna Almstead:
No, they're more in tune.

Pamela Bell:
Very, very. I've learned a lot from my kids.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. I think they're so much more checked into their wellbeing, which I feel like is, at least, I don't know if you see this with your kids, but I even see it with my 12-year-old, but I see it with younger women who work with me who are in their 20s, and they're just better about taking care of themselves and boundaries.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, boundaries. Oh yeah. We got a lot of boundaries. I'm like, wait, is that a wall or a boundary?

Johanna Almstead:
How flexible are these boundaries? I'm not really used to these boundaries. I'm very uncomfortable with these boundaries.

Pamela Bell:
My sister used to say that, she'd go, "Oh, your boundaries." Because I started having them too, and she just would torture me about the boundaries.

Johanna Almstead:
About the boundaries. You and your fucking boundaries, man.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, totally. That's exactly what she would say.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. And it's funny because it's like I'm always torn between, especially when it's a child that I'm trying to parent, or if it's somebody who works for me, and they're sort of setting a boundary that's not really in the vibe that I'm trying to go with. And I'm so proud of you. I'm really proud of you for advocating for yourself in putting that boundary, and I'm so annoyed.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, exactly. I know. I feel that. I get that. They also have so many more tools. I mean, even now, when I went through menopause, I don't even know the person that I was during that time. I have no relationship-

Johanna Almstead:
I mean I can hear that.

Pamela Bell:
... to that woman. None.

Johanna Almstead:
It's like being possessed by the devil.

Pamela Bell:
It was like being possessed by the devil. And I tell my kids all the time, I'm like, and it's so unfair that just as you go through menopause, your kids are teenagers, so you're at two worst possible times in your life.

Johanna Almstead:
The hormonal shit storm.

Pamela Bell:
Maybe it's meant to do that to build resilience because-

Johanna Almstead:
Maybe.

Pamela Bell:
... wow. I mean, I had panic attacks. And someone gave me a panic workbook. There was no, I mean, wow, I had no one to talk to about that. And it was a very dark time. And I made some decisions during those times that I don't think I'm going to be forgiven for a couple of those things, but it was, I don't even-

Johanna Almstead:
It's so hard.

Pamela Bell:
It's so hard.

Johanna Almstead:
And think about our mothers back even further, like what the fuck?

Pamela Bell:
Right. I know, I know. And I feel bad about how I acted as a teenager with my mom because, well, my mother also had a hysterectomy. So for some reason we all thought she couldn't be in menopause. So we're like-

Johanna Almstead:
So she's just suffering in silence.

Pamela Bell:
... she's just mean. But it was actually that she was in menopause.

Johanna Almstead:
That shit was like haywire. Yeah.

Pamela Bell:
It's haywire.

Johanna Almstead:
No wonder why they were drinking and smoking.

Pamela Bell:
I can't believe they don't talk to you... I mean, now, thank goodness you have support. You have support.

Johanna Almstead:
I'm so happy. It's changing every day. I feel like the conversation, even just in the last few years, has gotten so much louder and so much more nuanced, and I'm so happy about that.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. We just did a Prinkshop event at the marketplace at the Swell.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh, cool.

Pamela Bell:
And Naomi Watts was there with Stripes Beauty, and I think she's the co-host. And there were 20 doctors and women that specialize in talking about menopause. I was like, hallelujah.

Johanna Almstead:
Hallelujah. I know. I just had a woman from the practice that I go to actually, who's a nurse practitioner who specializes in it now. And I was like, please tell everyone. Just keep asking. Keep advocating for yourself. Keep finding those doctors because they are out there now finally. There are women, most of them are women, specialists. Not all.

Pamela Bell:
They are. Most of them are women. Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
That are really educating themselves in this and diving deep into the research and finding out the tools that work and finding out the concoctions at work. And it's life-changing when it works. I can say from firsthand experience that it is life-changing/

Pamela Bell:
I agree. I mean, I wish I had known that then, but good. I mean, I've healed from it.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. The people around you might not have. I'm not sure the people around me have either..

Pamela Bell:
I don't know if the people around me have either, but I'm like, "Wait, it was menopause." And they're like, "Yeah, right. Right, Mom."

Johanna Almstead:
You're like, just you wait.

Pamela Bell:
Exactly.

Johanna Almstead:
You know what I saw on Instagram, which I thought was beautiful the other day, it was a man who has his own Instagram handle that is about marriage during menopause.

Pamela Bell:
I love that.

Johanna Almstead:
Being married to someone who is going through menopause. And I almost got teary-eyed. I was like, oh my God, this is so beautiful.

Pamela Bell:
That is what we need more of. We need the men.

Johanna Almstead:
Isn't that amazing?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. We need the men-

Johanna Almstead:
The men have no idea.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. We need the men to understand. And yeah, I think that's a big missing part.

Johanna Almstead:
That's huge. Yeah, huge. I was like, go guy. I am going to start following you. Even though I'm not married to someone who's having menopause, but it's okay.

Pamela Bell:
Well, maybe he should follow him.

Johanna Almstead:
Yes, exactly. Send it to my husband. Just might be just a little tip. Helpful hints from Heloise. So is there anything that you once believed about yourself that you now know you've outgrown? Is there any story you were carrying for a long time that you've decided is not true or you've evolved out of?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I think I was just really hard on myself on everything. I think I didn't believe anything I did was really incredible or big. I just didn't-

Johanna Almstead:
Or good enough?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. Good enough. No, I don't have that perfectionism. I'm really like I feel good enough. It wasn't that. It was almost, I don't know, what's the difference between falling short on something? That's a hard question.

Johanna Almstead:
Being impactful maybe?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, like-

Johanna Almstead:
Making an impact?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, making a difference. Being seen. Yeah. I think I don't really understand. I don't think I see myself the way other people see me. I don't know if anyone does. But I look in the mirror and I see a version of myself that I think is not necessarily what others see.

Johanna Almstead:
Can you see your accomplishments? Can you see your-

Pamela Bell:
I can, but I feel like there's always more to do. I mean, I don't like to rest on that. It's like, yeah, okay, great. Got that done. What's the next issue? Or what's the next thing we can do? So I would say I'm not somebody that rests on my laurels. In fact, I don't really like it when a lot of people are very impressed with the Kate Spade, which I understand, but it's really a part of who I am and what I've done. It's not the whole-

Johanna Almstead:
No. Well, and it's also now a long time ago, right? You've done so much-

Pamela Bell:
And it's a long time ago.

Johanna Almstead:
... since then.

Pamela Bell:
So yeah, I don't really like to be introduced as that. And it was a period of time that I think was amazing and interesting, but it's kind of like if you were the football star of your high school, it's like-

Johanna Almstead:
You're not going to still cash in on that.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I'm not. I mean, it is and it's great and it was interesting. I think from a business perspective, you can translate, it translates time for the way that we handled ourselves and the way we grew. And none of us had credit cards or actually credit ratings because none of us borrowed any money. And so I think that there are pieces of, but I think that that can be applied to multiple different things, just who we are. So yeah, I don't want to be known as that. But it's hard in a New York City cocktail party, I get introduced sometimes as that. I'm like, are you serious?

Johanna Almstead:
This is a good question then. What do you want to be introduced as? If you were writing your bio right now, what would you say first?

Pamela Bell:
I just think my name.

Johanna Almstead:
Just who you are.

Pamela Bell:
Just who I am.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Not what you've done.

Pamela Bell:
No, exactly. I think it's kind of shallow. It's like go a little deeper. Let's just have a conversation where we are now. I asked someone at a cocktail party once when I was very young, it was a Frenchman, and I said, "Well, what do you do?" And he was like, "For what?" He was like so angry with me for asking him. And I never ask. I'll say maybe what do you do for fun? Or how's your life? But I will never ask somebody what do you do?

Johanna Almstead:
I've started asking people how do they spend their days?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, that's good.

Johanna Almstead:
Because I feel like it's-

Pamela Bell:
I like that.

Johanna Almstead:
... just I like to know how people spend their days.

Pamela Bell:
Of course.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Speaking of spending your days, do you give yourself days off? Do you take time? What is-

Pamela Bell:
Absolutely. Yes.

Johanna Almstead:
And what's your idea of a perfect day off?

Pamela Bell:
Perfect day off is a big walk on the beach. I would say a little work outside, maybe work in the studio, which is I don't really consider it work. Lunch with a friend, maybe a movie, dinner with a friend. I mean, just living.

Johanna Almstead:
It sounds lovely.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. Maybe a little healing session. Somatic healing. I'm really into Kundalini yoga right now, which I like a lot.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Is there anything that you've said no to that you wish that you said yes to?

Pamela Bell:
There were a few trips with friends that I wish that I had said yes to. I just thought-

Johanna Almstead:
And you said no because you were working or-

Pamela Bell:
I was working. The one thing that, when my kids were little, it was either working or I was with them. There's no way I would go. I never did a spa. I mean, it wasn't until 10 years ago that I actually went on a trip by myself. I went to the ranch at Malibu. And that was actually complete suffering the entire time.

Johanna Almstead:
I've heard.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. So last year, I mean, I was the last one on the bus. I was the slowest walker. I mean, it was painful. But I felt good afterwards physically. It was a little bit of a reset, but last year for the first time, I went on a solo trip to Costa Rica by myself. It wasn't work related. And I stayed in Blue Spirit in Costa Rica and did a spiritual retreat on lots of things to do with moral injury and psychology. And then I went to a hotel by myself. And it was great. I'd never done that before.

Johanna Almstead:
It's amazing. It's amazing.

Pamela Bell:
More of that.

Johanna Almstead:
I hope you do more of those.

Pamela Bell:
I'm going to. Yeah, I am.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. Well, this brings us to the very, very exciting time of this interview, which is the lightning round of silly questions. There is no wrong answer, and you don't have to have studied for this. This is just me asking silly questions that I like to like make up ideas about what people answer to these.

Pamela Bell:
I love it. Yeah, sure.

Johanna Almstead:
So don't overthink it. What's your favorite comfort food?

Pamela Bell:
Oh God. I just changed my diet completely based on this recommendation of a functional medicine doctor. So I mean, my favorite comfort food would probably be sourdough bread with some butter.

Johanna Almstead:
Oh, delicious.

Pamela Bell:
Delicious. But I'm kind of not doing that right now. But yeah, that would be probably that's it.

Johanna Almstead:
Sourdough bread with butter. Like hot out of the oven. It gets all melty. Yeah.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
Delicious. What is something you're really good at?

Pamela Bell:
I think I'm really good at moving.

Johanna Almstead:
Moving locations?

Pamela Bell:
Actually moving.

Johanna Almstead:
Moving your body? What are we moving?

Pamela Bell:
Moving my location. My eldest daughter said it's my superpower, and I kind of agree. I can just whip a place together, and I can see it. And yeah, moving.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. Are you for hire? Because I'm moving back into my house in about a month, and I could really use somebody to whip it in. You're like, oh, in fact, I'm going to start another business. I'm going to do that. I'm going to be a moving business. I'm going to whip people into shape business.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I'm like, get rid of that. Get rid of that.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, it's good. You could be like a coach. You could be a moving coach.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, moving coach. That's interesting.

Johanna Almstead:
I like it. I like it. What is something you're really bad at?

Pamela Bell:
I'm bad at discipline.

Johanna Almstead:
Really?

Pamela Bell:
Yes.

Johanna Almstead:
That surprises me. Okay.

Pamela Bell:
I'm getting better, but I'm not that disciplined with a lot of things.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. That makes me feel good about myself because I'm not very disciplined either, and sometimes it makes me feel shameful.

Pamela Bell:
High five. Yeah. Don't feel shameful.

Johanna Almstead:
High five for those undisciplined people who still make it in the world.

Pamela Bell:
Exactly.

Johanna Almstead:
And do good shit. Okay, great. Maybe we could make a t-shirt for that. What is your favorite word?

Pamela Bell:
Tenacious.

Johanna Almstead:
Ooh. I love that word.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
What sign are you? When's your birthday?

Pamela Bell:
Scorpio.

Johanna Almstead:
Scorpio. Ooh. So maybe too. I remember reading, I'm a Cancer, and most of the things that everyone says about cancers are like we're warm and soft and super sensitive and really loving and we're nurturing. And then one thing I read about it was that Cancers were tenacious.

Pamela Bell:
Oh, I like that.

Johanna Almstead:
I love that. I love that as a description of me. Okay. So tenacious.

Pamela Bell:
I like the way it sounds. I mean, I love the way it sounds, and I do love what it means. It's just not giving up. I would say so many people, they're like, we can't do that. That was one of the things I think in business, or just a big tip would be just because it isn't the way that it's been done for the last 50 years, it doesn't mean you can't do it a different way. I always hear no all the time. And I'm like, wait, but could you try it this way? Even with printing the glue, I run into no's all the time. We can't do that. I'm like, oh, yes, we can. So I think it's an admirable quality. When I see it in someone else, I'm like, oh, right, we can do this.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. Someone always said to me, just ask what else is possible? And I was like, oh that, that [inaudible 01:11:52].

Pamela Bell:
I love it.

Johanna Almstead:
And it's funny, my husband has just had this big really shitty work thing happen. And he was in it. And I just was like, let's just think about what else is possible. Just we got to go there. We can't go into the no.

Pamela Bell:
Break the cycle.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. You got to break that. And you can't just get stuck in the no. You got to get up into the what else is possible. How else can we do this?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. The yes.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, the yes. What is your least favorite food?

Pamela Bell:
What is my least favorite food? I don't like meat.

Johanna Almstead:
No meat?

Pamela Bell:
No meat.

Johanna Almstead:
Red meat or no animal product?

Pamela Bell:
Red meat. I just don't like it.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. What is your least favorite word?

Pamela Bell:
Can't.

Johanna Almstead:
Full circle back to tenacity. Tenacious. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Pamela Bell:
Wow. I'm just trying to think.

Johanna Almstead:
I stumped you. I stumped you.

Pamela Bell:
You stumped me. Because maybe I'm a kind of person that people don't give advice to.

Johanna Almstead:
They're like, you know what? She won't even listen. She's got tenacity. She's tenacious.

Pamela Bell:
That might be.

Johanna Almstead:
She's not even going to listen to us.

Pamela Bell:
That might... Oh, you know what? My dad once said to me, "Don't be too proud." And I was really confused because I always thought he was kind of too proud. But he actually said, "Don't be too proud."

Johanna Almstead:
Interesting.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I think that's a good-

Johanna Almstead:
That's a good one.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
If your personality were a flavor, what would it be?

Pamela Bell:
If my personality were a flavor. I don't know. I feel like maybe honey.

Johanna Almstead:
Ooh, I like it. Get more bees with honey.

Pamela Bell:
Is that a flavor? Is that a flavor?

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, for sure. 100%.

Pamela Bell:
I'm going to say honey.

Johanna Almstead:
I love that. Okay. So it's the last supper. It's not sad. You are moving on to the next realm. You've done all the things you needed to do here. And you are gathering your people to have your last meal. What are you eating? And this is probably before you saw your functional medicine doctor.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. What am I eating or who am I with?

Johanna Almstead:
We're going to do both. So what are you eating first?

Pamela Bell:
What are we eating? I would say just something super fresh and healthy. I do like that. I love salad and greens and vegetables and fruits. And I do like chicken. I would say a roasted chicken with lots of accessories. Whatever you got. Side.

Johanna Almstead:
Side dishes?

Pamela Bell:
Side dishes.

Johanna Almstead:
Accessories. Yeah.

Pamela Bell:
Side dishes.

Johanna Almstead:
Like a wooden hair bow.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Flowers on the table.

Johanna Almstead:
I like that you're going to the decor too.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
No detail left on undone.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. Nice tablecloths. Linen heavy. Heavy linen napkin. Not much alcohol.

Johanna Almstead:
No. Are you drinking anything?

Pamela Bell:
I'm not a big drinker. I just never have been.

Johanna Almstead:
Okay. Do you want tea or iced tea?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I like a little sparkling with some, I like a non-alcoholic mocktail.

Johanna Almstead:
Like a mocktail. Like a spritzy kind of mocktail.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I do like flavored drinks. I'm not a big alcohol person. I like a pink champagne if it's really great.

Johanna Almstead:
Ooh, yum. Okay. So dream dinner party guest list. Let's just think about who would be eating there.

Pamela Bell:
I would say my dream dinner party guest list would be my family. And it would be having hard conversations.

Johanna Almstead:
Really.

Pamela Bell:
Being really open and honest and fully in ourselves.

Johanna Almstead:
Beautiful.

Pamela Bell:
That would be my dream dinner.

Johanna Almstead:
That's so nice. Speaking of honest conversations, have you ever had a moment in your life where you've had to eat your words?

Pamela Bell:
Oh, all the time. Yeah. All the time. All the time. I mean, I think I'm sorry is a big part of my vocabulary. Because sometimes I just shoot before I think. And I'm like, oh God, I didn't mean to say that. Yes.

Johanna Almstead:
And are you good at taking it back? Are you good at being like, okay, I shouldn't have said that. I'm so sorry.

Pamela Bell:
Yes. I think I've gotten better at that. I used to be I'm sorry but. And now I'm that must've really been horrible for you, and I can't believe I said that. I'm so sorry. I'm trying to retrain my brain not to make it all about myself.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, I do know. It's hard.

Pamela Bell:
It is hard.

Johanna Almstead:
It's really hard. Yeah. If you could eat one food for the rest of your life, it'll sustain you, you don't have to worry about nutritional value, what would you eat every day?

Pamela Bell:
This is kind of crazy, but I really like cucumbers with salt.

Johanna Almstead:
You'd be so hydrated and glowy and-

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. I like cucumbers. I mean, I really like them. I like the way they taste. I like way they, maybe it's like a crunchy thing. I don't know, but I do. And I love a cappuccino.

Johanna Almstead:
Cucumbers and cappuccino. That could be the name of your next brand. Forever. Cucumbers and Cappuccino Forever.

Pamela Bell:
Forever. It's funny. The Forever. Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
Where is your happy place?

Pamela Bell:
In nature, I would say really. I love the ocean. I love the woods. I love the grass. I love to feel my feet on the earth. And I love my home is also very happy.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Because you whipped it together because you moved in.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I whipped it together.

Johanna Almstead:
And I imagine there's lots of cucumbers there.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, I have cucumbers in my garden. I grew them this summer, which was crazy.

Johanna Almstead:
I hope they didn't get the frost last night. Because it was so cold I heard.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, they're done.

Johanna Almstead:
Cucumbers-

Pamela Bell:
They're sort of done now.

Johanna Almstead:
So I don't know if you feel like this anymore, but what do you wear when you feel like you need to take on the world? You're going to a big event, you're going to raise money for a cause that you believe in. What do you wear? What's your power move?

Pamela Bell:
I wear, I have this great pair of Agnes b. boots with little heel that are sort of like if there was a French cowgirl, that's what they would be.

Johanna Almstead:
Chic.

Pamela Bell:
They're short, but they're just really great. I feel great wearing them. I have a pair of Ann Mashburn blue velvet pants that I think are incredible. And then usually something very simple and a jacket. I really like the brand Ann Mashburn because it's feminine, but not girly.

Johanna Almstead:
Not girly. Yeah.

Pamela Bell:
And it feels like there's strength. At least for my age, I feel like it's a really beautiful... And the quality is so nice.

Johanna Almstead:
Kind of feel powerful in it.

Pamela Bell:
I like quality over quantity right now. I'm not a fast fashion person.

Johanna Almstead:
Me neither. And it kills me that my kids want to be fast fashion people.

Pamela Bell:
Of course. Of course.

Johanna Almstead:
And I'm like, ugh. And I get it because they're growing really fast, and the Saint-Tropez t-shirts are calling them.

Pamela Bell:
That's their age. My kids were sort of into that when they were that age. But then now they are recyclers. They're just vintage.

Johanna Almstead:
Yes. My friends' kids who are in their 20s are really into vintage, and it makes me very happy.

Pamela Bell:
Very. And they recycle it. And so they don't ask for money because they're traders. They're all business people.

Johanna Almstead:
I love it. Well, apple didn't fall far from that tree, did it?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. No, but I'm just saying that entire generation.

Johanna Almstead:
That generation, yeah. They're figuring it out.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, they're trading.

Johanna Almstead:
So what is your go-to coping mechanism on a bad day? What happens? What do you do?

Pamela Bell:
Breathing. Time out. Deep breath. Double up on the meditation.

Johanna Almstead:
I thought you were going to say double up on the medication. And I was like, oh, or that too.

Pamela Bell:
No, meditation. I'm going to guess if I had the right thing.

Johanna Almstead:
Maybe.

Pamela Bell:
No. I think it's like, and also I've learned how to actually feel the bad days. And I think that's really helpful.

Johanna Almstead:
Do you succumb to them? If it's like, I'm having a bad day, I'm just going to-

Pamela Bell:
I'm like, ouch. This is so painful. This is really painful. And just let it seep in. I think we spend a lot of our lives trying to block out the pain. And I think if you really, I mean, this isn't my personal only belief, it's like Freudian, I think. But if you really do feel it, then it actually evaporates.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. You got to let yourself get through it.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. Like, ouch-

Johanna Almstead:
[inaudible 01:20:59] your way through it.

Pamela Bell:
... this is a shitty day, or this is hard.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. My friend said to me once, just get comfortable in the muck. And I was like that makes sense.

Pamela Bell:
I think our kids need us to do that. I mean, it's funny. I talk to my kids, and they're like, "You sound like you're afraid." I was like, "Well, I think you're thinking that is because that's how I used to be, but right now I understand that this is a hard time and you have the tools to get through it." And they're like, "Who are you?"

Johanna Almstead:
Who is this evolved version of my mother who's healing-

Pamela Bell:
We're all getting used to it.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. That's cool though. That's cool for them to see that evolution in you and to feel it in yourself.

Pamela Bell:
I hope so. I mean, I think that it's a struggle. I think we all have stuff with our parents. Nothing's perfect.

Johanna Almstead:
Right. We're going to fuck them up one way or another.

Pamela Bell:
I'm just trying to narrow the list down.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, exactly. Let's just try to not do it so bad. Let's just try to do it on a little tiny level. What is one thing you know for sure right now today in this moment?

Pamela Bell:
I feel that I know that everything's going to be okay.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. That's a great place to be, huh? So I know you have some exciting projects coming up that you can't necessarily talk about, but can you tell people where to find you so that they can follow along and make sure that they're supporting all the things that you're doing?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. That's really nice. So prinkshop.com. And it's printed ink. So it's P-R-I-N-K shop.com. And all of our partners and licenses are all on that website also. Then it's Pamela Bell Collage Works.

Johanna Almstead:
Go check them out. They're gorgeous.

Pamela Bell:
Thanks. And yeah, I am actually starting to get certified as a family constellation facilitator, which is-

Johanna Almstead:
Tell me what that means.

Pamela Bell:
It's so cool. I went to this, family constellation therapy is a type of therapy, and you go in a group, and there's a facilitator and it's a big circle, and someone sits next to the facilitator and says, "This is my problem," whatever it is. And then the facilitator guides the group to, non-verbally, so physically act out the scenario.

Johanna Almstead:
Whoa.

Pamela Bell:
And it's really about generational trauma. And I mean, I could talk about it for hours, and then nine months from now I'll be able to talk about it forever. But I went and I had this very powerful experience as a participant. And I talked to my kids about it. And my eldest daughter, who's a therapist, was like, "I think you should do it." So I'm starting. I don't know if I'll do anything with it, but I'm going to learn a lot. And it's Zooms and some in-person and practicums, and there's books. It's like becoming certified as something.

Johanna Almstead:
And it's like a several month long program?

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, it's nine months.

Johanna Almstead:
Wow.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah. So maybe I'll come back next year and talk to you about that.

Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, I was going to say, you'll have to come back after you're certified and we'll do a whole other episode.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, yeah. We'll see.

Johanna Almstead:
I love that. That's very cool. Congratulations. That's exciting.

Pamela Bell:
Thanks.

Johanna Almstead:
It's a whole other layer, whole other realm, huh?

Pamela Bell:
I think it helps in all ways. And I want to understand my kids a little bit more. I just think it's only good, and I think it's good to keep studying.

Johanna Almstead:
Totally.

Pamela Bell:
Keep learning.

Johanna Almstead:
Totally. Yeah, for sure. Well, that is going to be an amazing journey. I'm very happy for you. That's cool.

Pamela Bell:
Thanks. Yeah.

Johanna Almstead:
Well, this has been so meaningful to me and so inspiring to me. And I'm very, very, very grateful to you for taking the time to spend this much time with me today, and to share your stories and to share all of your goodness. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being here.

Pamela Bell:
Yeah, thank you. And thanks to Tricia. She's just-

Johanna Almstead:
Yes. Thank you to Trish.

Pamela Bell:
... one of a kind.

Johanna Almstead:
She really is. She's one of a kind. And I'm very grateful to her for connecting us, and she's a delight in my life.

Pamela Bell:
I can-

Johanna Almstead:
And I feel very, very grateful.

Pamela Bell:
... imagine. Yeah. And thank you. And this was really easy, and thanks for having me on.

Johanna Almstead:
That was amazing. I am feeling all sorts of things. I'm feeling inspired and excited and filled up from that conversation. I hope all of you are too. I hope it is inspiring you to follow your passions, to start a business, to go in the studio and do some art, to make some good in the world, make some change in the world. Our hope is that by spreading these stories that people are moved to do good things in their lives.

One good thing that you could do is, if you're feeling so inspired, to share this episode with people that you think might get something out of it. So if you know anyone who's stuck, do you know anyone who wants to start a business? Do you know anyone who should be creating art and they just aren't yet? Please share this episode with them. You can send it via text. You can just copy the link. You can even just forward the episode in the side on your little menu on your media player. You can share it on social media, you can email it, you can do all kinds of things. So I would be eternally grateful if you would share it with people that you think might like it.

As always, I'm so grateful for all of you who continue to listen and continue to give me feedback and continue to share. If you're not doing so already, please follow us on social media. We are at eatmywordsthepodcast on both TikTok and Instagram. And if you haven't done so already, please subscribe or follow the pod. Those are the big numbers that matter. And I show up to this microphone many days a week, and I still can't believe that I get to do this. And it's all thanks to all of you who continue to tune in. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And I will catch you on the next one. This Eat My Words podcast has been created and directed by me, Johanna Almstead. Our producer is Sophie Druin. Our audio editor is Isabel Robertson, and our brand manager is Mila Boujnah.